Authenticity Issues

[49 Convertible]

When judging "show cars" I find it frustrating to see beautiful cars losing points on  simple fixes.  Hose clamps are an easy item to obtain but many people fail to bother.  How about valve stem caps being black plastic instead of Schraeder metal ones in the 40s thru 1950.  Sealed beam headlights did not have aiming bumps in 40s thru early 50s.  Wrong fan belts, radiator caps, gas caps.   Dirty engine compartments. These are but a few easy owner fixes, do it for points and your own satisfaction.

[druby]

Some of us club members aren't too concerned about judging, or loosing points at a GN or any show for that matter, they go to enjoy the show and place their "pride & joy" next to the fierce competition at a Grand National event, keep in mind that not every car is correct as it was when leaving the factory, somewhere in that perfect car, something isn't original eguipment. Trophies & plaques are nice to have, but mean nothing to me as long as I have a good time and meet new people. I've seen so many people come to and leave a show disappointed because they did receive and award they thought they deserved. My thoughts are, come and enjoy with no expectations other than meeting new people and make friend & enjoy the other cars.

[chrisntam]

I agree with Druby.  Not concerned about total authenticity, but was talking with another member at the GN, I was letting him know what I thought and he replied, well, it's (authenticity) important to me.

There's room for everyone and I do enjoy looking at the authentic cars, it's like looking in the past.

chris.

[Scot Minesinger]

I could not agree with Dan more.  I see cars that are rusted and cost major money to bring to an acceptable standard win over cars that are wonderful with a few minimal issues, that may include but are not limited to:

1.  Stainless steel worm gear clamps, usually at least 8 per car - major deduction
2.  Radial tires on a 1972 or older - major deduction
3.  wrong belts
4.  wrong color on valve covers
5.  some grease on fire wall
6.  wrong valve stem caps
7.  wrong hoses (extruded vs. normal)
8.  wrong battery
9.  wrong battery cables
10. wrong/missing engine decals
11. wrong floor mats
12. wrong convertible boot
13. wrong headlights
14.  wrong radiator caps

On the 1964 and newer the climate control might not work and it is minor deduction yet will cost often more to cure than the above 14 items.  Yet a Cadillac 1964 and newer with no climate control skates on thru.  It is never easy to make judging rules happy for everyone - it is a very tough job.

Now I just enjoy the show and enter my car as a display only.  No sense stressing and spending mental energy worrying about a $12 plaque.  I joined the CLC for the cars and stay for the people.  The club has room for everyone from serious show point contenders to inexpensive #4 classics that are driven a lot. 

It is my car and my happiness with it is enough.  I bring my Cadillac to GN (when it is within a one day drive) to share with my fellow CLC members.  It is no fun to own a classic and not share it.

See you in Kentucky for GN 2019,

Scot

[slowpoke17]

I have an 88 CDV that with only 23k miles on it I'm pretty sure its close to all original except for the newer tires that I can tell by the date code and stripe width. I don't know if the previous owner replaced any suspension parts, hoses, clamps (the old wire type are still there so I'm guessing they are original) etc. I'm torn between trying to keep a car as an all original survivor yet I don't want to have any fears that the fan belt might snap or the hoses blow when I'm going down the highway. I want to eventually show my car when the GN comes closer to New England but I also want to enjoy it. Things I can control will be to make sure the car is really clean and everything functions as intended. After that I'll leave it to the judges.

[cadillacmike68]

When judging "show cars" I find it frustrating to see beautiful cars losing points on  simple fixes.  Hose clamps are an easy item to obtain but many people fail to bother.  How about valve stem caps being black plastic instead of Schraeder metal ones in the 40s thru 1950.  Sealed beam headlights did not have aiming bumps in 40s thru early 50s.  Wrong fan belts, radiator caps, gas caps.   Dirty engine compartments. These are but a few easy owner fixes, do it for points and your own satisfaction.

Sorry, I'm not removing my stainless (never rust!) hose clamps off for ones the that rust and leak. No Way.

Same for Radial tires.

And what all this about Wrong this or that Scot:

3.  wrong belts
4.  wrong color on valve covers
5.  some grease on fire wall
6.  wrong valve stem caps
7.  wrong hoses (extruded vs. normal)
8.  wrong battery
9.  wrong battery cables
10. wrong/missing engine decals
11. wrong floor mats
12. wrong convertible boot
13. wrong headlights
14.  wrong radiator cap

My belts aren't "wrong, they are the right size for the car. If they were "wrong" the car wouldn't run. Now they might not have the fake "original appearing: GM stamping, but who cares. Pretty much the same can be said for most of the "wrong" items above.

Except for maybe the floor mats. These will keep the 50+ years if they are stored indoors.

I'm not into faking originality or authenticity or whatever you want to call it. I try to use GM and AC/DELCO parts for the car even the ones you can't see like the points & condenser. But I'm not playing that game with the 1968.

And you're correct on Climate Control. It's a high maintenance system especially 1964-68, and you get blasted it it's not working perfectly.

Any everybody wonders why the 55-57 chevys are so popular. Simple, uncluttered, etc.


No grease on my firewall, Can't say the same for the undercarraige...

[Scot Minesinger]

Mike, the problem is basically that the "authentic" parts are no longer produced except for show cars and are generally not road worthy. 

Example:  Friends car ran great during a ride together, he gives it to me a week later to fix ac, and it keeps overheating.  I call him and ask what did you change since last saw you?, he says radiator cap with an "authentic one".  I replace the cap with one that works, fix ac and smash the "authentic" one with a sledge.  My patience with parts produced only for show cars is beyond low now.  I hope the Chinese start collecting American cars of the 60's and start installing their own parts.

The "grease on fire wall" is an expression meaning that the undercarriage and etc. are not pristine - the judge manual requires the car to be as new (painted frame and all) to earn top awards.

Are you driving to KY in 2019?

[Dan LeBlanc]

I was going to reply to this last night, but figured I better hold off until I'm in a better mood.

I don't have an authenticity manual for my 70, but I know where my deductions would be.  I have worm style hose clamps, a new set of battery cables without spring ring ends, a modern AC Delco maintenance free battery, AC Delco plug wires and spark plugs (original wires should have been Packard date coded, I believe), AC Delco shocks with the label still applied, 5 radial tires, four of which are on Truspoke 50 spoke wire wheels, the leather is new, but not as glossy as original but it is glove soft and beautiful, a convertible top boot with snaps, and a beautifully trimmed trunk in black carpet.  Oh, and a Pro6Ten a/c compressor without a weepy front seal like the A6's.

Mechanically, the car is fit to drive across country tomorrow.  Cosmetically, the car is bloody beautiful.

My experience with reproduction parts is the same as Scot's.  I had reproduction plug wires on the 61.  They didn't even have 1000mi on them.  On my way back from Hershey in 2015 heading to a friend's house where we were staying, the car was running terribly.  That night, I did the mist test and the plug wires were lighting up like a Christmas tree.  Replaced them and the car ran beautifully.

I bought a reproduction radiator cap for the 70.  Drove the car and noticed it seemed to be running a little hot.  There was no coolant in the overflow bottle.  The cap was fitting so tight, the coolant couldn't expand into the overflow tank.  Put the aftermarket replacement back on and all was good again.


Oh, an bias ply tires?  Forget it.  I've never seen so many weights on a wheel to balance a tire.  White walls turning brown and cracking after 100 miles use before going into storage for the winter.  My Diamondback tires on the 70 were installed in 2013.  Not a crack.  Drive excellently, and the white walls are as nice as the day they were done.

I share the sentiments already expressed here about bringing the car, having fun, and not worrying about the trophy.  It's a wonderful opportunity to make new friends and get caught up with old ones.  My hat's off to those who care to separate the pepper from the fly poop and chase the awards.  I think you'll find a mix of some that don't care, , some that do, and some that want to make the car right, but perhaps some barrier prevents them from doing so (financial,  physical, time constraints).

[Steve Passmore]

Hear, hear Dan. Half of my pleasure is working on them, the other half driving them.  Had many trophies but I care about them not.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Not this again. 

If you care about setting the car up for show competition, by all means do so; don't if you don't - and have a good time regardless. Pretty simple really.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Seems to happen every year, post-GN, Eric.

[wrench]

100 point cars stand out at any event I go to. I check out the cars and sometimes the owners are nearby. I usually engage in a conversation about the vehicle.

In every case, the owner of a 100 point car shares certain traits with all the other owners of 100 point cars.

At some point in the conversation, I start to think the guy belongs in the loonie bin.

I am not being uncharitable, it is just an observation.

I actually admire the fanaticism required to accomplish that level of achievement.

It's just not my thing. I like to rev the darn thing up, pop it into gear and take her for a spin.

And I will tell you, that is what the car wants too.

It's just that simple. I have had many old cars show me their appreciation for being taken out and driven rather than sitting around for another 50 years doing nothing. I can feel the car. They just want to be used the way it was designed to be.

[Jay Friedman]

I agree with Dan, Jim and others; I use authentic parts when I can, but if an after-market replacement works better I install it.  I drive my car to GNs and other shows, flaws and all, usually "for display only".  It would win prizes when first restored 30 years ago, but now it's just a driver and it likes to be driven. 

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Exactly. They all have their own personality. Mine juat love to be driven. People would have a fit if they saw mine....... I have shoulder belts in the 55.
I know there won't be a change but there almost needs to be a catagory for 'drivers.' The only qualification is that the car was driven at least 750 miles in the last 12 months..... but, I'd  lose that one too. Oh well.
Jeff

[Fred Pennington 25635]

I agree that a few simple fixes can result in a lot more points. But one has to consider how many national shows a car or it's owner has been to.  My wife's 73 Mustang Convertible recently scored a Silver award (2nd Place) at a regional Mustang Club of America show. Her first big show. She now knows what she needs to fix for the next show.
But I will disagree on some of the items you listed as easy fixes. For 30's and 40's cars some fan belts are not available, period. No reproduction or after market new or old. Early sealed beam head lights sounds like an easy fix, but if or when you can find them they usually run $200.00 each. Others have posted some of the reliability problems of reproduction parts. You also have to consider that the parts used on some older cars did not work well when new. Simple parts like radiator caps, spark plugs and wires are often changed for reliability.
Other car clubs have more classes to reflect the level of originality. Exceptions are made for a limited number of after market parts. The same as turn signals and seat belts that are installed in cars not originally having them.
Driver quality cars should not be judged the same as trailer queens.
Remember, We should be doing this for the love and enjoyment of these fine automobiles.

[robert G. smits]

The AACA has had a Driver Participation Class since about 2000.  This has become very popular and at some meets there are almost as many DPC cars as judged cars.  Google AACA Driver Participation Class for details.  In the 80's and 90's I was active on the AACA and CCCA circuit along with Concours.  I haven't towed a trailer queen to a show since 98. The turning point was when my wife announced she would no longer accompany me to car shows because they "were not fun". I have put 5500 miles on my original 41 model 63 on AACA and VMCCA tours in the last eight years and tour regularly with newer cars on appropriate tours. It beats the Heck out of polishing spokes.  Bob Smits

[cadillacmike68]

I was going to reply to this last night, but figured I better hold off until I'm in a better mood.

I don't have an authenticity manual for my 70, but I know where my deductions would be.  I have worm style hose clamps, a new set of battery cables without spring ring ends, a modern AC Delco maintenance free battery, AC Delco plug wires and spark plugs (original wires should have been Packard date coded, I believe), AC Delco shocks with the label still applied, 5 radial tires, four of which are on Truspoke 50 spoke wire wheels, the leather is new, but not as glossy as original but it is glove soft and beautiful, a convertible top boot with snaps, and a beautifully trimmed trunk in black carpet.  Oh, and a Pro6Ten a/c compressor without a weepy front seal like the A6's.

Mechanically, the car is fit to drive across country tomorrow.  Cosmetically, the car is bloody beautiful.

My experience with reproduction parts is the same as Scot's.  I had reproduction plug wires on the 61.  They didn't even have 1000mi on them.  On my way back from Hershey in 2015 heading to a friend's house where we were staying, the car was running terribly.  That night, I did the mist test and the plug wires were lighting up like a Christmas tree.  Replaced them and the car ran beautifully.

I bought a reproduction radiator cap for the 70.  Drove the car and noticed it seemed to be running a little hot.  There was no coolant in the overflow bottle.  The cap was fitting so tight, the coolant couldn't expand into the overflow tank.  Put the aftermarket replacement back on and all was good again.


Oh, an bias ply tires?  Forget it.  I've never seen so many weights on a wheel to balance a tire.  White walls turning brown and cracking after 100 miles use before going into storage for the winter.  My Diamondback tires on the 70 were installed in 2013.  Not a crack.  Drive excellently, and the white walls are as nice as the day they were done.

I share the sentiments already expressed here about bringing the car, having fun, and not worrying about the trophy.  It's a wonderful opportunity to make new friends and get caught up with old ones.  My hat's off to those who care to separate the pepper from the fly poop and chase the awards.  I think you'll find a mix of some that don't care, , some that do, and some that want to make the car right, but perhaps some barrier prevents them from doing so (financial,  physical, time constraints).

I love stirring the pot. 

Dan, my top boot has snaps, but they are hidden. You can get the "proper" top boot from Rockauto and others; it has the hidden snaps.

I still like the A6 compressor - mainly for it's impressive size.


Scot,

I might go to KY next year. The 1968 is running much better than at any time since I first got it.

BUT, the 1996 Fleetwood is still nearly 100% original (except for the larger hood ornament from a 1992 Brougham) and some crests and wreaths on the back end of the quarter panels, so it's a more logical choice for a judged car.

[cadillacmike68]

Some consider my car a concours / trailer queen car. It has won concours awards, CLC Senior and AACA grand national first. But guess what...I have driven the car over 30,000 miles since it was restored in 2006. I maintain it as needed to keep it at the concours level. Therefore it is possible.v

Steve, how you keep the car that clean in the engine bay is beyond me. What do you do if you are caught in a downpour driving back from somewhere?

[Dan LeBlanc]

Mike - the Pro6Ten is almost identical in external dimensions to the A6.

[cadillacmike68]

Mike - the Pro6Ten is almost identical in external dimensions to the A6.

Yeah, but its fugly.   

And there's no place for the Frigidaire Division of GM label.