News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

1941 Hard Starting after hot and more

Started by fs220, June 16, 2018, 07:38:50 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

fs220

Hi all, need a professor on '41 mechanics to analyze and advise on my experience last evening.  Background (if needed) Put a new exhaust on my '41 series 75 limo last week, muffler on back, also changed the fan fanbelt.  Went well, sounds good.  Went to a meet last night (about 45 minute drive), drove fine. After I got there I parked the car, shut it off. Then immediately went to start it and it wouldn't start, cranked slowly until it wouldn't crack any more.  Left it where it was and hung out for about an hour and a half. Tried to start it again and it started fine. #1(Could this be a starter problem when hot?)  Then the fun continued. On the trip back (45 min), It was running good but I felt it was not right, felt like it was dragging a little.  Put the headlights on and it was bad, dragged even more and knew something was wrong. Shut the headlights and it was better but not perfect. Tried the headlights again, once or twice and the same. #2 (I think a bad generator?) The last time I tried the headlights, I heard a big bang in engine, I think it back fired (which it never does) and I think might have caused damage, perhaps to a manifold gasket but not sure, but I can hear it is not right, not loud but in the engine, like an exhaust leak. It did get me home but noticed exhaust fumes were heavier when I put it in the garage. Idles good though.  Not sure if all related or perhaps multiple issues.  Normally car runs good. Is my thinking on #1 and #2 accurate?  As for the exhaust, I need to start it again to hear it and try to pinpoint the problem there.  Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts, Frank
1941 Series 75
1970 Deville Convertible
2006 XLR LE #3
2007 DTS

Steve Passmore

Many threads here the same as yours Frank.  I think your assumptions are correct. I would look to the generator first which when fixed might cure the starting problem.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Barry M Wheeler #2189

In case you haven't figured it out already, (I once published an article in the S/S with the subheading, "Don't shut her off if you're not gonna' be here a while..." ), 1941 Cadillacs are notoriously hard to start when hot.

Add a double ended ground strap from the frame to the transmission. Make sure all the original ones are not corroded. Take the starter off and make sure all the brushes are not worn down to nubs. Take the cover off the starter solenoid and carefully take the round washer inside out (you have to move one soldered lead to get it out), and either sand it bright with emery paper or simply turn it around so that there is a fresh surface for electrical contact.

Replace the long bolts holding the starter to the engine with ones only about 1 1/4" long and wipe them clean so you can insert them with your fingers. Get a curved 5/8" box wrench to install the starter or use a short 5/8" socket with a wobble connection and a long extension behind the starter to tighten the hidden bolt easily. A 3/8" socket wrench is easier to use than a 1/2" one. You can use the long extension and the short 5/8" socket to start the "hidden" bolt with your fingers at the front end of the starter body.

There are lots more suggestions to get your starter up to snuff on the Forum, but the ones I mentioned are sometimes overlooked.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Jay Friedman

Besides what Barry wrote, you might want to consider running an auxiliary ground strap to the "commutator end plate" of the starter.  (In plain English this is the round plate at the end of the starter that does not go into the motor.)  Art Gardner and I wrote a Self Starter article explaining how to do this and I can send you a copy if you like.  The results are good.

You'd need to buy some simple supplies (bolt, 2 nuts, 2 lock washers, auxiliary ground strap). It's a 30 minute job in addition to removing the starter from the motor and then replacing it.  Tools needed are usual wrenches and either a drill press or a hand drill. 

If interested email me at jaysfriedman@yahoo.com
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

z3skybolt

#4
My LaSalle has a newly overhauled 1940 Cadillac 346 engine in it.  Recently I was experiencing very slow cranking and barely getting it started when hot.  Finally it completely failed to turn over.  I thought the starter was shot. Turned out my 20 month old battery had died. Recently installed two Optima 6 volt wired in parallel to increase cranking time.  So far it spins over quickly even hot and after a short shut down.

I installed the starter straps as mentioned by Jay F. when the engine was overhauled. Never could tell any difference. But either way for now....all is well and greatly improved.  Drove her today in 96 degree weather. Shut it down for a few minutes and cranked right up even though the engine was hot.

By the way about 20 months ago I experienced a very loud, explosive, bang while driving the car slowly...something like you described. Seems that gasoline had accumulated in the hot muffler and exploded. I thought something awful had happened.  3,000 miles later no apparent issues..

Good luck,

bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

pmhowe

I'd take Barry's thread and start with the easiest: Clean and/or replace the battery straps, make sure you have a good ground. Go from there. Also, for sure, post your results.

Phil

Brad Ipsen CLC #737

Brad Ipsen
1940 Cadillac 60S
1938 Cadillac 9039
1940 Cadillac 6267
1940 LaSalle 5227
1949 Cadillac 6237X
1940 Cadillac 60S Limo

fs220

Hi, thank you all for sharing your thoughts, experiences and solutions. I will let you know how I make out.  Once I pull the car out of the garage I can see closer where the noise is coming from when I step on the gas but I think it is coming from the top of the engine, perhaps an exhaust manifold gasket, but doesn't sound good. Could it possibly be the generator making the noise?  I plan to replace the generator and battery to start.   
1941 Series 75
1970 Deville Convertible
2006 XLR LE #3
2007 DTS

Glen

One thing many seem to miss is the starter.    The electrical current for the starter flows to ground from the commutator end plate through the body of the starter and the nose piece to the engine block.  Many times, those parts are painted (or has rust) that prevents the current flow.  When that happens the two long bolts that hold the starter together becomes that path to ground.  But they are too small to carry that much current, especially when the engine is hot. 

The cure is to clean the points where the commutator end plate contacts the body of the starter, where the body contacts the nose piece and where the nose piece contacts the block. 

Other things to check is the battery terminals are clean, the battery cables are large enough and where they connect are clean. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

fs220

It has been a year since I posted this issue but finally getting around to updating. I replaced the battery with an optima, did have to replace the exhaust manifold gaskets, I was lucky that the bolts came out pretty easily for the most part. Replaced the generator and voltage regulator (a member was nice enough to sell me an original voltage regulator in the box, thank you). This was done over the winter and the car has been runninjg very nicely. I am liking the optima battery.  Thinking I might buy another just to keep in the trunk. , if needed.  Just have to keep an eye to make sure charging system is working properly.  I did experience an issue twice now, once last year and agin this weekend when I returned from a show, let the car sit a while before I put it in the garage, started it and the starter kept running, when the car was running and even after I shut it off.  Last year when that happened, I took apart the bolts and cleaned them and it was fine since, until now.  I guess I have to clean all connections again.   Pleased to add it took best of show yesterday out of 600+ cars at the Q104.3 annual car show here in New Jersey.
1941 Series 75
1970 Deville Convertible
2006 XLR LE #3
2007 DTS

Bobby B

Quote from: fs220 on August 25, 2019, 09:29:26 AM
Started it and the starter kept running, when the car was running even after I shut it off.............

Solenoid is sticking. Better check that out.
                                              Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH