1938 V16 Transmission Removal

[Jeff Trahan]

I followed the instructions to remove the transmission from my '38 V16 but after I took out the four cap screws that hold the transmission to the bell housing, it would only move back about 1/4 inch. So I proceeded to remove the engine and transmission from the car at the same time. Now I still need to separate the engine from the transmission. Any ideas? Should I just use a wooden wedge to nudge them apart? It's unlikely they have ever been separated from when the car was new. The car hasn't been started/driven in over 50 years.

Thanks.

Jeff Trahan

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

There should only be two things that are hanging the trans up.  The spline on the clutch and the pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft.  You do not need to worry about doing damage to the pilot bearing.  It is readily available but not the same as the later V-8 flatheads.  You will be replacing it for sure anyway.  The clutch disc you do have to worry about damage.  Maybe use some of you favorite rust cutting snake oil on the spline.  You will have to replace the clutch facing in any case so no worry about getting oil on these surfaces now.  Maybe go back and forth working the 1/4 inch of play you have a few times to get more oil on it.

[Steve Passmore]

Sounds like the pilot bearing could be frozen on the transmission shaft and is pulling out of the crankshaft then stopping on the drive plate.  Got over this before by undoing all the bolts on the pressure plate and pulling the trans off along with the whole clutch unit, that's if you can get at the bolts? I have little knowledge of the V16s.

[Jeff Trahan]

I tried disconnecting the transmission from the engine again but no luck. This time I sprayed the inside of the clutch mechanism liberally with WD-40 and removed the clutch lever from the bell housing so I could see better. The transmission will still only move back about 1/4 inch. I was able to spin the TM 90 degrees and while it was upside down I removed the bottom cover to look inside (completely dry by the way but not rusty). I think maybe there is a 1/4 inch of play inside the TM and that's why it only moves that much. I also removed all 12 bolts in the pressure plate (left one in very loosely) but the clutch housing isn't budging off the flywheel. The shaft doesn't seem to be moving on the spline at all. I'm guessing that the male part of the spline is attached to the clutch and the female part comes out with the TM. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong or what I should try next? Thanks.

Jeff

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Jeff,
There was a LONG  PAINFUL  scenario about the same thing happening to a Canadian guy  with a 38 60S.. Try a search or maybe someone can provide a link.
Good luck.
Bob

[Bobby B]

Jeff,
There was a LONG  PAINFUL  scenario about the same thing happening to a Canadian guy  with a 38 60S.. Try a search or maybe someone can provide a link.
Good luck.
Bob

Maybe this it it.....
                   Bobby

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=137641.0

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

Sounds like the clutch is rusted to the flywheel and pressure plate and the spline on the trans input shaft is rusted to the clutch plate.  If you need to sacrifice here it is the trans input shaft. There is nothing V-16 special about that part.  Interchanges with all most all V-8 trans 38 to 53.  I have one if you end up needing one but should be good in any parts transmission you can find.  It is a part that for the most part does not get much wear.  In Cadillac part naming the Retainer for the Bearing is not a wear item at all but it gets lost when taking all of this apart and seems to be quite valuable on eBay.  It is the part that the throwout bearing is almost sliding on.  Now from memory I don't know if you can actually get in there to cut the input shaft or if you can cut the shaft without cutting the bearing retainer.  You will have to look.  You do not want to mess up the pressure plate or clutch disc.  They are V-16 unique and are easily rebuilt but you need the cores.  The disc is unique in that there are no springs to take torsion in it.  It is a solid disc.  One other suggestion if you haven't already done it.  You will want the transmission weight on the main bolts that hold the transmission onto the bell housing.  Replace two of the bolts with much longer bolts with the heads cut off.   

[Steve Passmore]

Wow, just read the post that Bobby linked to, had forgotten how long that went on, but the problem actually was the first motion shaft stuck fast on an undersized pilot bearing. Rust will do the same.

[Bobby B]

Wow, just read the post that Bobby linked to, had forgotten how long that went on, but the problem actually was the first motion shaft stuck fast on an undersized pilot bearing. Rust will do the same.

Steve,
  Was it like Deja Vu? You were part of that solution.....
                                                               Bobby

[Steve Passmore]

I was re-living there Bobby

[Bobby B]

I was re-living there Bobby

Steve,
   We're all Livin' the Dream......That seems to happen when subjects are beat to Death like "My 346 Flathead runs Hot/ Overheats"  ..........
                                                                                                                          Bobby

[Jeff Trahan]

I am finally getting back to my transmission removal project. I applied a lot of lubrication to the joint where I think it is supposed to come apart but need some additional info/advice. I think we established earlier in the thread that I probably have two separate problems:  (1) the clutch is rusted to the flywheel and pressure plate and (2) the spline on the transmission input shaft is rusted to the clutch plate. So I need to tackle the second problem first. I'm attaching a photo. Where is it supposed to come apart? Does the male part of the spline stay with the engine side or does it come off with the transmission? By the way, the rust isn't as bad as it looks in the photo. Unfortunately, I'm not able to make a puller similar to the one mentioned in the long thread a few years ago about a 1938 Caddy with the issue with an undersized pilot bearing because I only have about 1/4 inch of movement between the bell housing and the transmission housing. And that was a V-8 and mine's a V-16 so there's a difference in the clutch. If I know where it is supposed to come apart, maybe I can try to apply heat from a propane torch to coax it a little. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Jeff

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

I could not open your attachment so don't know exactly what you have pictured.  Attached is a cross section of a OHV clutch and transmission but the parts are the same as the V-16 in concept.  The splined shaft is connected to the transmission but the piece that the throwout bearing slides on is loose but trapped between the trans and the bell housing. That piece and the input shaft are not V-16 unique.  Everything else including the throwout bearing and holder (for lack of a better name) and the pressure plate and clutch disc are unique.  Throwout bearing is available and I have had to make the holder so that is also not an impossible part.  Pressure plate and clutch disc core are not parts you want to damage.

[Jeff Trahan]

Thanks for the cross-section drawing. That helps. Does the splined input shaft go all the way from the transmission to the pressure plate or is it in two parts that are connected by the piece that the throwout bearing slides on?

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

Goes straight through and is held  by the bearing which is snapped ringed OD to the case and ID to the shaft.  If you could sacrifice the transmission some how that would be fine also compared to any of the clutch parts but I can't think of a way to do it.  Nothing unique about the V-16 trans.  It is the same gears and main case as all of them.  Rear housing is big series cars only.

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

One other thing to keep in mind.  The input shaft does not come out of the front of the trans.  The OD of the gear is bigger than the bearing OD in the front of the trans.

[harvey b]

Not sure exactly whats keeping this together>,if you have it out on the ground,i would use 2 crowbars and use them as a prybar,one on the top and one on the bottom,apply some pressure and see if it wants to move,i would soak some penetrating oil on it too,let it sit for a while then try and pry them apart.also if you have some pressure on it,try and hit the shaft and see if that helps jar it loose?,i would try an air chisel with a long blade,have it tapping the shaft at the same time as you apply pressure.Good Luck.. let us know how it goes. Harveyb

[novetti]

Have you tried a bit of heat (mapp or propane) around the pilot bearing area then squirting some penetrating oil (ATF/acetone mix) ?

Keep the heat just to the required area.

[Jeff Trahan]

I finally got the transmission off today. Someone had advised me to use Kroil so I gave it a couple good dousings. I don't know if it was that or all the other types of lubricants I had applied liberally over the past few months but it came off pretty easily today with a little "coaxing" from a wooden wedge. Next week, on to the pressure plate assembly! I've been trying to get the penetrating oil into the pressure plate assembly as much as possible since in addition to the input shaft being rusted on, I think the pressure plate is rusted to the flywheel. I would appreciate any advice on how and where to apply the lubricant and some pressure to get it to come off (without breaking anything) after I remove the 12 bolts that fasten the pressure plate assembly to the flywheel. Thanks.

Jeff

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

That is great.  I don't think you will have any problems now going ahead.  You should be able to wedge in to either between the flywheel and clutch plate or pressure plate and clutch plate.  You don't have to worry about nicking the clutch material since it will be replaced.  After that you will need to remove the flywheel.  You will need to remove the dowel pins before it will come down and out.  You will need to make a tool to remove the dowel pins.  if not obvious email me directly. Leave at least two bolts in before removing the pins.  It is very heavy.