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1967 Cadillac Calais not enough power

Started by richardbergquist, September 21, 2018, 11:31:28 PM

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richardbergquist

I bought this car two days ago. I've replaced wires, rotor, distributor cap,plugs, fuel filter oil and oil filter. It's a bit faster now than before but it still feels like it has no power to go any faster than just very calm driving. If I do a kick down it puts in the lower gear and slowly accelerates but there's no push. It is as if someone had put in a block that prevents any driving that's not super careful grandma driving. I realize this may be due to a bunch of things but does anyone with knowledge of these cars have any spontaneous reflections?

Julien Abrahams

Like you said, this could be all kind of things. Does it idle properly? Is there fresh gas in the tank? Where is the timing at? Do you have a timing light to check the timing at idle amd to check if the centrifugal and the vacuum advance both work? Spark plugs ok? Spark plug wires.
I don't know if this is your first (American) classic but remember that these cars are heavy so don't expect sports car performance  :). Your '67 should also have the switch pitch th 400 transmission. There is quite a noticeable difference if the switch at the carb or inside the transmission is not working properly. You can check this quite easily: afterthe car has warmed up so it is at base idle, shut the engine off. Then under the hood remove the air cleaner for better access. Turn on the ignition but do not start the engine. Then, under the hood, move the throttle lever gradually from idle to WOT. You should hear three clicks rcoming fom the transmission. The first two are the stator solenkids and the last is the kickdown switch.
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett

Dave Shepherd


richardbergquist

Quote from: Julien Abrahams on September 22, 2018, 04:04:02 AM
Like you said, this could be all kind of things. Does it idle properly? Is there fresh gas in the tank? Where is the timing at? Do you have a timing light to check the timing at idle amd to check if the centrifugal and the vacuum advance both work? Spark plugs ok? Spark plug wires.
I don't know if this is your first (American) classic but remember that these cars are heavy so don't expect sports car performance  :). Your '67 should also have the switch pitch th 400 transmission. There is quite a noticeable difference if the switch at the carb or inside the transmission is not working properly. You can check this quite easily: afterthe car has warmed up so it is at base idle, shut the engine off. Then under the hood remove the air cleaner for better access. Turn on the ignition but do not start the engine. Then, under the hood, move the throttle lever gradually from idle to WOT. You should hear three clicks rcoming fom the transmission. The first two are the stator solenkids and the last is the kickdown switch.

I don’t have a light no. How can I check if the vacuum advance work? What is a centrifugal?

I will go out and check the switches, terrific advice! Thank you!

It’s my first 60s car yes. I’ve had older American cars before though and even as they’ve not been exactly rockets you’ve been able to tell at a kick down that this is is this cars most violent. This caddy never gets violent and it barely wants to go up a hill.

Scot Minesinger

The 67 Cadillacs used only one engine, the 429.  It was quick for the day for how heavy it was.  The 1966 Cadillac was reported to make 0-60mph in 8.5 seconds, and probably the 67 is similar (same hp, same gearing), however although HP rating was unchanged the q-jet carb on a 67 (first year) probably made better power.  So this should not seem slow.  I have driven effortlessly at 70mph up steep grades on the highway in a 67 Cadillac.

The timing chain always should be replaced if original in these 1963 thru 1981 Cadillacs because the cam sprocket is nylon coated.  The slack in the chain can cause lower (not slug like) power too.  If the chain is original then that should be on your short list.  Probably you should do a compression check too.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

67_Eldo

As others have said, 67 Cadillacs weren't slow. My 67 Eldorado (with the 429) zips right along. And way back in the day, I won the "Large" class (Mustangs, Camaros, etc) in my very first autocross in my Mom's 1967 Sedan deVille!

Much more detail is needed. But generally, this sounds like a carb-centric problem. The first thing I'd do is check the vacuum lines. That's quite a task, even on a Calais. I'd start by blocking off everything from the carb and see what happens to the idle. Then, one by one, reattach the stuff in order of importance and size. For example, hook up the brake booster and see what happens. Then hook up the distributor vacuum advance. And so on.

At some point, you'll probably hear a dramatic change in the way the engine is running. When you do, you've found a problem. But don't think that you've found *all* the problems until you've checked every vacuum connection.

I don't believe that "magical" fluids normally fix problems, but it couldn't hurt to run some Seafoam or Lucas fuel treatment through the system. That might remove some problematic varnish that may be gunking up the works. But if your car previously sat for a long time, you may well have to rebuild the carb to properly clean out accumulated gunk.

Good luck!

richardbergquist

Quote from: 67_Eldo on September 22, 2018, 11:20:59 AM
As others have said, 67 Cadillacs weren't slow. My 67 Eldorado (with the 429) zips right along. And way back in the day, I won the "Large" class (Mustangs, Camaros, etc) in my very first autocross in my Mom's 1967 Sedan deVille!

Much more detail is needed. But generally, this sounds like a carb-centric problem. The first thing I'd do is check the vacuum lines. That's quite a task, even on a Calais. I'd start by blocking off everything from the carb and see what happens to the idle. Then, one by one, reattach the stuff in order of importance and size. For example, hook up the brake booster and see what happens. Then hook up the distributor vacuum advance. And so on.

At some point, you'll probably hear a dramatic change in the way the engine is running. When you do, you've found a problem. But don't think that you've found *all* the problems until you've checked every vacuum connection.

I don't believe that "magical" fluids normally fix problems, but it couldn't hurt to run some Seafoam or Lucas fuel treatment through the system. That might remove some problematic varnish that may be gunking up the works. But if your car previously sat for a long time, you may well have to rebuild the carb to properly clean out accumulated gunk.

Good luck!

Thank you for the good input! Manual says I should run it on Premium gas. I run it on 87, what you all run your cars on?

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Running on 87 is an excellent way to destroy that motor. With 10.2:1 compression ratio 93 octane is required.  As far as lack of power you just need to go back to the basics and check all the systems one at a time.  Compression, leak down, timing chain, ignition system, fuel system.  These are simple motors and do make good power when running correctly.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

richardbergquist


I checked the clicks; it did all three. How do I check the centrifugal and vacuum advance?

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#9
Had the car been sitting for a while? I actually don't know how to check the advances without a timing light. But you can check them with the engine off. Put a hose on the vac advance and suck. Does it hold vacuum? I am not sure how your distributor looks inside but on the 70 the counter weights are on the top. See if they are free. They were stuck on the 70 when I got it so no advance.
Check to be sure the choke is fully opening because the back barrels won't open if the choke is not fully open.
Also look for an exhaust restriction if it had been sitting long.
Good luck
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

richardbergquist

It’s mostly been sitting yeah, it only has 34000 original miles on it. Old couple bought it in 1967, husband died in 1972; she died in 2004. It’s only been driven 10000 miles since 1986.

When it’s cold it can’t be started without start gas. When it’s warm it usually starts without trouble. If that’s any hint.

DaddyDeVille

I bought a 67 last fall and though an engine swap had been done; I had similar problems in power.  2 big problems arised, A( timing was way off, probably not your problem; but who knows) and B( vacuum leaks everywhere)  The one that took me for the longest ride was the heater control switch inside the car.  It only leaks in the off position which meant while it was warm out and the heater was off; the car would not run right.  Once that was plugged off; everything got a lot better.

As they said above, plug all the vacuum and then work back from most important.  (Heater being the last :D)
1 Old car (The Green Devil~le) (Lots of gas)
1 New Truck (Not quite lots of gas, but still a lot of gas)
1 New Car (no gas)
1 Newish Bike (Some gas)
1 Old bike (Some more gas)

https://chuckdidit.wordpress.com/
https://www.instagram.com/mightneedoil/

Julien Abrahams

If it has been sitting for so long it will not hurt to take apart the carburetor and clean it. Maybe there is a lot of gunk in there. However, as others suggested, i would also start with looking for possible vavuum leaks. There are a couple of "major" vacuum connections. On the carb: from the base of the carb to the choke pull off (very short hose). From the front of the carb to the PCV valve (quite a large hose). From the front of the carb to the vacuum advance at the distributor.  Then, on the intake manifold:  at the rear of the intake manifold, close to the firewall, one goes to the brake booster. At the same connection a vacuum line tees off to the transmission vacuum modulator. Finallly there is a small connection at the drivers side at the rear towards the cowl that goest o the vacuum tank (little black canister bolted to the firewall).
I would plug them all and start the car to see if it idles and drives better. If it is a cold start, before you start the car, go under the hood, take off the air cleaner and look at the choke valve. This should be vertical (completely open) from the last drive. Then slowly move the accelerator linkage all the way towards the cowl. The choke valve should snap shut. At WOT the choke valve should open slightly (in order to allow more air in after flooding the engine).
If the choke valve closes properly, start the car (with the help of a little squirt of gas down the primary side of the carb if necessary to get it running). Then check the idle speed. It should be around 1800 rpm. Tap the accelerator once. It should go the mid-high idle. Check if it runs smoothly. I would then shut off the engine, connect the brakr booster and vacuum advance, and  leave the rest plugged (brake booster simply for safety as my experience has been that, without the booster, you really have to step hard on the brakes to get it to stop). After about 20 mins of driving (ful!y warmed up) the engine should idle at base idle. Turn off the car, take of the air cleaner. See if you can open the secomdary air valve by hand. There will be some resistance from the choke pull off vacuum diaphragm. If this is ok, start the car and while looking at the secondary air vavle quickly open the throttle wide. If the secondaries work properly, the secondary air valve will vary rapidly open somewhat and close again.
In this video you see what i mean:
https://youtu.be/88c-3NYMsvI
If yours acts the same, thenyour secondaries are opening properly. If the air vavle is not opening, check if the lockout tab ((small lever on the passengers side of the choke valve) prevents it from opening. If the engine has completely warmed up, the choke vakve should be vertical and the lockout tab clear of the front ofmthe secondary air valve.

I know its a lengthy reply, but good luck.
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett

richardbergquist

Thank you for fantastic responses, I will try all of that. I have noticed two things. There is a clear hissing in the cabin coming from the ACC and there is a double holed rubber cable (one is green) under the dash that is not connected to anything. I wasn’t able to find where that cable should go or find the origin of the hissing.

Also I’ve noticed that the lever connected to the vacuum diaphragm that sits to the back of the right side of the carb (choke side) is not able to pull its lever far enough to engage what it is supposed to engage even under full vacuum.

I did try and clean the carb up a little and then it seemed the rear ports were able to open, otherwise I believe they never do.

tripwire

Go get yourself a Service Manual for this car and read it.  Lots of good information on how all the different systems, Carb, Distributor, etc. are supposed to work and how to fix them.  Stop guessing.  Also, it will help you with the names of the parts you refer to in these postings.

What's a centrifugal?  Centrifugal advance is a mechanical means of advancing the timing in the distributor to match the timing of the spark to the position of the piston in the cylinder as the speed of the engine increases.  It works in combination with the vacuum advance.  Think of it like this, if you have to meet someone at 2:00 and know it takes 10 minutes to get there walking you leave the house 10 minutes early but if you drive it only takes 3 minutes would you still leave 10 minutes early? No, you'd leave 3 minutes early otherwise you'd have to wait 7 minutes.  Your ignition spark has to arrive when it's needed, not before, not after.  Either situation will cause poor power.

"double holed rubber cable" do you mean vacuum hose?

"the lever connected to the vacuum diaphragm that sits to the back of the right side of the carb (choke side) is not able to pull its lever far enough to engage what it is supposed to engage even under full vacuum."  Could this possibly be the choke pull-off?  If it is it is only going to move the choke plate just a bit when the engine first starts when it is cold enough for the choke to be fully closed.  No other time.

Look here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-CADILLAC-REPAIR-SHOP-SERVICE-MANUAL-FISHER-BODY-MANUAL-CD/183406219268?hash=item2ab3dcd004:g:cW8AAOSwDJRbh2BA

or here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-1967-service-shop-manual-El-Dorado-Fleetwood-used-reprint-nice/253861099035?hash=item3b1b4cf61b:g:jEAAAOSwQYZWyjSj

or here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/WOW-Original-1967-Cadillac-Service-Shop-Manual-Good-Condition-Vintage/263902437323?hash=item3d71cf9fcb:g:gc0AAOSwuXNbcN6A

And if none of those are to your liking there are several more on eBay and I'm sure if you google it more will come up.

Good luck.

Wes in VT

Driving now:
2013 CTS4 Performance Coupe
1940 LaSalle 5229 C4D

A few I used to drive:
1976 Cadillac Ambulance
1969 Cadillac Hearse, Superior Body
1966 Buick Wildcat Hearse
1957 Ford Thunderbird x 3, 1 E code, 2 D code
1956 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 Sedan
1949 Mercury Convertible
1949 Mercury Coupe, Mild Custom
1936 Buick Special Sedan

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#15
Here us the centrifugal advance Wes was talking about. Mine was frozen. Check to be sure the weights move freely. This is on a 70 but the principal should be the same.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

67_Eldo

Quote from: tripwire on September 26, 2018, 10:58:25 AM
Go get yourself a Service Manual for this car and read it. 
He's apparently not a big reader. This pattern has presented itself before.

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=136984.msg308428#msg308428

Julien Abrahams

Good advice from Wes. I got the manual on cd. So e erytime i need a section,I print it and use it. Then it is fine if you touch it with dirty hands or accidentally rip it, yoy just print it again. And if itmis still usuabke I put it in a folder. But I am a. It of a nerd as I also write down every issue and repair I make in a kind of log book. This way I can check if I did repair somethjng before and fkr example how long new parts last.
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett

richardbergquist

Thank you for excellent responses. I will check to see if the centrifugal is moving freely. I meant vacuum hose yes, it has two holes on one end, one of the hoses is green. I am Swedish so my English is perhaps not always perfect, I apologize for the confusion.

tripwire

No worries.  We all had to learn the language.  Technical items have their own vocabulary but it's necessary. 
Any chance we can see some pictures of this car you are working on?

Wes in VT
Driving now:
2013 CTS4 Performance Coupe
1940 LaSalle 5229 C4D

A few I used to drive:
1976 Cadillac Ambulance
1969 Cadillac Hearse, Superior Body
1966 Buick Wildcat Hearse
1957 Ford Thunderbird x 3, 1 E code, 2 D code
1956 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 Sedan
1949 Mercury Convertible
1949 Mercury Coupe, Mild Custom
1936 Buick Special Sedan