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Who's our go-to guys for cast iron exhaust manifold repair?

Started by Mike Baillargeon #15848, January 07, 2019, 06:39:09 PM

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Mike Baillargeon #15848

I have 1934 LaSalle exhaust manifold that has the exhaust pipe flange completely broken off.

I had a local outfit try to repair it.....it looked like they used a caulk gun to glue it back together...........it lasted a half hour on the car.....these guys are just not capable of repairing this.

Any thoughts would be great.....Thanks,

Mike

Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

harry s

Mike, I've used Crow Cast Iron a couple of times, once for a problem as you describe and always been satisfied.  Harry
https://www.castmetalwelding.com/about-us
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Mike,

You need to find a good Engineering shop, or a Mining workshop as these people have the necessary equipment for doing odd stuff like repairing cast iron.

I have over the past, had great success with using a Castolin Eutectic Metal Spraying process when I had to modify Exhaust Manifolds, when performing RHD conversions and engine changes that others wouldn't touch.

The process goes through a lot of Oxy and Acetylene in the preheating part, and requires a specialised "gun" to apply the powder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoaPSaNYl34

The secret of a good weld is in the preparation, and preheating the whole part, so that thermal shock doesn't destroy it.

I had good results with an odd change where I had to cut off the centre outlet, and relocate it to the rear pointing downwards, and 3" away from the manifold, via inserting a 2 1/2" mild steel tube.   The process deposited new metal to the cast iron, then to the tube, then filled the joint.   Was good to watch, and took about an hour of preheating, before attempting to spray.   The heating continued through the spraying, and afterwards so it didn't cool down too fast, it was placed in a "slow-cooling" substance.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Thanks guys.....Harry I'll touch base with the Crow Cast guys...

Harry do you think they will tackle mine?...I'll send them some pictures....

Boy Bruce, that metal spraying is sure impressive!..

Here's a couple of manifolds that I'll have repaired...the one on the car is the one that didn't last long....the other , as you can see just broke in half after a crack started.

Thanks again,

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

harry s

Mike, I would think they can fix both. The manifold I had repaired was broken like the one in the first picture except there were two broken pieces of the ear. Your second one looks like a clean break. I'm sure Crow can get a good feel from the pictures. Good luck,    Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

fishnjim

I'd be simultaneously looking for a good used one, even with a good shop.
Cast is cast and old cast repair is a crap shoot.   It doesn't age well, or take kindly to weld heating.   Has to do with the microstructure and carbon content/migration under thermal cycling.   Brazing or similar is used because it doesn't get quite as hot as iron welding and have to anneal before and after.   The filler material is also key, usually a nickel base.
One of the hidden issues this "sport" will face in the distant future, cast won't last forever.
The exhaust manifolds, slowly corrode and rust off getting microscopically thinner mile by mile.   Eventually to the point, they lose structural integrity and break or crack.  We replace the exhaust "system" but think the manifolds should last forever?   
The exhaust gas can be oxidizing or reducing, is "wet", and high heat affects the metal.   It should be slightly oxidizing at optimum fuel combustion.  The system sees acidic condensation on start-up.   
If you get it repaired, it'd have it ceramic coated, if you want it to last.   That gives the base metal a protective barrier that won't corrode and restores some thickness.

Mike Baillargeon #15848

I have an email into Crow Cast Iron and I'm waiting to hear back.

I have been looking for a replacement but finding a 1934 LaSalle Exhaust manifold is next to impossible....I've learned that Oldsmobile made this engine for the 34....

On eBay I found a 1935 Oldsmobile manifold......that one came to me, and you can see it in my 2nd picture....cracked in half....you can tell they shipped it that way....trying to get some of my money back....Of course no crack or breakage were in any of their pictures....on eBay you always roll the dice.

Jim that's a good idea to get the manifold ceramic coated....I'll ask Crow if they do that after the repair.

Thanks.....Mike

Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

LaSalle5019

I was doing a little research on repairing cast iron and came across this company.  At the bottom of the page is a really good white paper on understanding cast iron repair and why electronic welding doesn’t work well.  They’ve taken all the info you already know and put it into one document that links it all together.  I felt it was worth reading.  They look to have a little better product for stitching too.

http://www.locknstitch.com/cast-iron-welding.html

Scott

Mike Baillargeon #15848

I know that's it's against our rules to trash a vendor, but boy would I love to.

I emailed the photos of the damaged manifold (see above) to the vendor....I figure before I ship the 60lbs of cast iron at a cost of $75 I'll hear an opinion first as to the repair.....I was told it looks like an easy repair.....he gets the box and I call him he says looks like $150-$200.....cool, I can live with that.

2 weeks later he calls me and says it was a more involved repair but he's done and the total he needs to ship it back is $1600 !!!.....8 times the original quote !!

I get the feeling that the manifold is going to be held hostage if I don't give him my credit card....I give it up....mistake....

I get the manifold back and it's nice work but I still think he should have told me before he blind sides me...

Like I said the work was good but I still have to dispute $1,000 of the $1,600 charge with my credit card company....They of course tell me they can't help....

What would you guys have done?.....remember the manifold is very hard to find and the car is dead without it.

Mike 



Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

Bobby B

Quote from: Mike Baillargeon  #15848 on February 22, 2019, 05:57:57 PM
What would you guys have done?.....remember the manifold is very hard to find and the car is dead without it.

A. What shop does an unauthorized overly involved repair like that and doesn't contact the owner first? They must've had a hunch that you were desperate, the manifolds are rare, and they were willing to take the chance of doing the repair without contacting you first with an estimate, knowing that you would suck that up?  Down Right BAD Business practice if you ask me. NOBODY should proceed with a repair if it goes WAY beyond the original estimate without at least a phone call.

B. They do deserve to be Trashed, AND reported to the BBB, and maybe even further that that. I've never heard of a ripoff that severe. I'm feeling your Pain. Good Luck and Sorry to hear that you were a Victim of a Thief........
                                        Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

INTMD8

Quote from: Mike Baillargeon  #15848 on February 22, 2019, 05:57:57 PM


What would you guys have done?.....remember the manifold is very hard to find and the car is dead without it.

Mike

Wow, that is a good chunk of change. 

I would have tried welding it myself and if it didn't last, fabricate a new manifold out of stainless. 

harry s

Mike's experience with this vendor is a horror story. It seems like some of the shops that provide services to the old car hobby aren't satisfied with just providing their service and running a respectful business. They find it necessary to take advantage of the people that provide their living without thought of where the next customer is coming from. I was lucky enough to have not been taken advantage of by this person and I do feel bad for the recommendation. I agree with others that these type of experiences should be discussed and the offenders "called out". It also has an impact when their advertising sources are alerted along with social media postings.      Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Not your fault Harry....the work he did was top notch but the guy turned out to be a crook....

I don't know what he heard in my voice it that conversation about his $150-$200 quote....desperation?...I don't know...

Somehow I get the feeling looking back, that he heard another crook...me...who was just going to bill the next sucker down the line for his work....unfortunately our hobby is loaded with these guys.....

What I have now is at least the motor purrs like a kitten....and all I can do now is wherever I see his advertising I will let that publication....or that forum, know my story.....

Lesson learned is get the quote in writing....an email or anything that shows we both heard and know the same thing......then at least the credit card company will take my call.....

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

Bobby B

Quote from: Mike Baillargeon  #15848 on February 23, 2019, 07:57:22 AM
Somehow I get the feeling looking back, that he heard another crook...me...who was just going to bill the next sucker down the line for his work....

Please clue me in on how you factor in a $1600.00 manifold repair when you're selling a car?  ??? Usually when I overpay on a part or a repair, I eat it....
                                                                                                                                                                                             Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Bobby I figured he thought I was just another of these bad Classic Auto Restorers.

You know the ones....they take your car in to restore it and never get it done but they just keep asking for more money.

This crook figures I'm just going to mark up his work and bill the cost out to the duped customer looking to have his car finally finished....

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

packrat

I have good luck using TIG with a mild preheat, 800degrees +/-, straight argon, 2% thoriated tungsten, 316 stainless rod. Preparation is everything. I get it really clean and with the above process, tack it together. I then carefully grind a deep vee all around the break. I then preheat it again and start welding, usually several passes. I did an exhaust manifold from an antique fire truck for a local fire department years ago and it is still fine. They tried several welding shops and they said it could not be fixed. I have a Model A exhaust manifold that has two of the ears broken off that I will fix one of these days and will post some pictures but it is not a priority right now. I am not a metallurgist or a certified welder but I love it when somebody says "It can't be fixed".
1933 Cadillac 355C
1930 Ford Model A 2-door sedan
!934 Ford Panel Truck "Old" Hot Rod with built Flathead
1937 Buick Series 90 7-passenger sedan
1957 Corvette (almost done)
1972 Corvette survivor/driver
1974 Corvette project
1955 Caterpillar D8 Cable!

Tom Boehm

This is after the fact because you have had the part repaired. But here are two items recently posted on the AACA site that pertain to this topic. One is a method of cast iron repair. The other is an exhaust manifold from an Olds; would that work on a Lasalle like the guy claims?
https://forums.aaca.org/topic/317735-1935-lincoln-k-club-sedan/page/8/
https://forums.aaca.org/topic/322513-1934-1935-1936-lasalle-intake-exhaust-manifolds/

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Yes the Olds manifold bolts right up to the LaSalle motor but the carb is different.....you need a Stromberg ee-1....the ee-23 that came with the LaSalle wont fit.

New carb means the throttle linkage is different and would have to be reworked.

Engine pipe is good fit for both....

Mike

Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Quote from: packrat on February 26, 2019, 05:00:05 AM
I have good luck using TIG with a mild preheat, 800degrees +/-, straight argon, 2% thoriated tungsten, 316 stainless rod. Preparation is everything. I get it really clean and with the above process, tack it together. I then carefully grind a deep vee all around the break. I then preheat it again and start welding, usually several passes. I did an exhaust manifold from an antique fire truck for a local fire department years ago and it is still fine. They tried several welding shops and they said it could not be fixed. I have a Model A exhaust manifold that has two of the ears broken off that I will fix one of these days and will post some pictures but it is not a priority right now. I am not a metallurgist or a certified welder but I love it when somebody says "It can't be fixed"
.

Paul can you take a look at these couple of pictures of my exhaust manifold?

The ears on both sides were broken off clean.....a local welding outfit tried to repair it and that lasted about 20 minutes before one of the ears broke off......after that this is the manifold I shipped off to the crook.

How many hours of labor would you have to invest to repair this manifold flange?

Thanks.......Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Here is the repair I got back.......$1,600 ??....nice but I should have been told and allowed the work to go forward...

What if the car was only worth $3,000 !!

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848