News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

1939 LaSalle 5019 Suspension - What Am I Getting Into?

Started by 39LaSalleDriver, January 09, 2019, 12:24:56 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

39LaSalleDriver

After a series of events (new tires, new bearings) and discovering my kingpins are heavily worn, I have determined that I am going to have to rebuild the whole suspension and steering system. I figured it was coming, but hoped I had a couple of years to play with and I don't want to ruin my new tires and wheel bearings. From what I can tell everything is original to the car and is present and undamaged. Of course all the rubber is shot as you would expect.

Other than my kingpins, I don't see any play in anything else under there. Oh, maybe the steering gear could use a little adjustment, but I don't think it's too far off base for an 80 year old car. I get about 2" of play in the steering wheel at center with the entire front end jacked up and using only my finger to move the wheel. In the year I've had it, it has rode and drove pretty good as far as I'm concerned. A little bit of wandering, but not much at all on a good road. As for suspension, perhaps a little too much of the feeling like I'm riding a water bed down the road, but not annoyingly so.

Right now I am looking at the Kanter suspension rebuild kit. I know, I know...Chinese parts, go to Rare Parts, you get what you pay for, etc., etc., etc. I'd prefer to go with Rare Parts, but it just isn't in my budget, and I'm willing to gamble I can get a few years of service out of what Kanter sells me.

OR

I have thought about going ahead and getting the Rare Parts or a NOS kingpin set as I suspect those take the most beating. Then try to reuse all of my original parts as much as possible, just replacing the rubber components with parts from Steele.

Question is, is it possible to reuse the metal components like the inner bushings, outer pins, tie rod ends, and stabilizer links that are on my car already and just install new rubbers? Anything I should be concerned about in doing that? Parts prone to failure that should be replaced regardless? Or should I just get the Kanter kit and replace all my OEM parts with theirs and be done with it?
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

Steve Passmore

No part of your king pin setup will be reusable,  There's bronze bushes in there with a bearing and shims, they all wear out. NOS appear on ebay often, I have a pile on the shelf. Good idea to check your shock absorbers but it means dismantling the top egocentric joint and resetting the caster/camber. These are the most overlooked component because you can't effectively check them while everything is bolted up. There should be no free play whatsoever in the arms. They drive like new with new shocks.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

C Gorgas

Rebuild is very dangerous take care as the spring will fly out if not properly compressed and secured.

fishnjim

I think you're answering your own question, just don't want to face up to it.

Unless suspension is brought back to spec, the tires, etc. will wear more.   So if it's drive able and safe and a little tire wear is not a problem, go with it.   If you want it "right", then a complete rebuild is called for.   
You can space it out, buy what you can afford and do that this year, then some more the next til it's all done.   Someone/suspension tech/shop would have to look at it and assess what's priority, if you're not able.

z3skybolt

1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Fred Pennington 25635

Before you start, find a shop that can fit your pins and bushings.
When you replace the bushings they are undersized and will not be inline with each other.
The bushings must me honed to fit the king pin and in a straight line.
Fitting pins and bushings used to be common, when I did mine I only found one shop where I live that still does it.

Fred Pennington, CLC 25635
1940, LaSalle 5019
1940 LaSalle 5019 parts car
1968 Ford Bronco
1973 Mustang Convertible
2012 Shelby GT500

Jay Friedman

To properly fit the king pins to the king pin bushings, you must find a shop that has the special double ended reaming tool necessary to ensure that the 2 bushings are what I call "concentric".  There may be a better word for this, but I mean that the cylinders formed by the interior diameters of the 2 bushings must be exactly the same diameter and they must line up with each other and, of course, the king pin.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

39LaSalleDriver

Quote from: Steve Passmore on January 09, 2019, 05:12:46 AM
No part of your king pin setup will be reusable,  There's bronze bushes in there with a bearing and shims, they all wear out. NOS appear on ebay often, I have a pile on the shelf. Good idea to check your shock absorbers but it means dismantling the top egocentric joint and resetting the caster/camber. These are the most overlooked component because you can't effectively check them while everything is bolted up. There should be no free play whatsoever in the arms. They drive like new with new shocks.

Oh, I was all too aware that new kingpins would be required. It's the other stuff that I'm curious about such as tie rod ends, stabilizer bars, and the bushings with grease fittings. Could I get away with using what I have (provided they aren't damaged or worn out) and just add new rubber components, or will I need to get all new parts for these things?

If the former, I get to keep my original parts which theoretically are superior to imported modern components...they would just have all new rubber. Ultimately, it would cost more than buying a Kanter kit, but it would still be cheaper than getting all new from Rare Parts. If I can't use my old parts with new rubber, then I guess I'll have to figure out whether I want to gamble on Kanter, or go the Rare Parts route.

Quote from: fishnjim on January 09, 2019, 10:27:37 AM
I think you're answering your own question, just don't want to face up to it.

Unless suspension is brought back to spec, the tires, etc. will wear more.   So if it's drive able and safe and a little tire wear is not a problem, go with it.   If you want it "right", then a complete rebuild is called for.   
You can space it out, buy what you can afford and do that this year, then some more the next til it's all done.   Someone/suspension tech/shop would have to look at it and assess what's priority, if you're not able.


I already knew the suspension was going to have to be redone, so that wasn't ever in doubt, but this is partially the type of advice I'm looking for. Since I had bought the car a year ago, I had felt that it was safe to drive for the time being (after all, I've racked up 3000 miles on it myself with no problems, and who knows how many previous owners put on it with all that slop going on). But now that I've got a brand new set of $1000 tires and new bearings, I'd just as soon not trash them out any more than I have to.

I need to run the numbers on what I'm looking at for parts and maybe space that all out as you suggest. I do know that it would be a foolish to piecemeal my repairs rather than having everything ready to go and replace/rehab everything at once. Might as well do it all one time. Right now I'm just searching for the best way to go about it. Honestly, parts aren't even my biggest concern at this point...it's finding a shop that can press the bushings and kingpins in, and then doing an alignment that I am most worried about. The rest I can theoretically do on my own with time and some degree of trial and error.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

Brad Ipsen CLC #737

Generally all of these parts, outer upper and lower pins, tie rod ends and king pins are available NOS on eBay given a little time and effort to collect them.  The inner lower shaft and bushings not so much but they are not usually worn so much.  I am talking 1940 here and I think 39 maybe different on the inner lower.  Get the shocks rebuilt.  Your steering gear may be okay but they do get wear and damage and this is expensive to fix.  Read the shop manual and how to remove the springs and make adjustments.  As long as the car is still heavy (engine and body work on the car) it is safe to remove the springs.
Brad Ipsen
1940 Cadillac 60S
1938 Cadillac 9039
1940 Cadillac 6267
1940 LaSalle 5227
1949 Cadillac 6237X
1940 Cadillac 60S Limo

Jay Friedman

#9
Quote from: C Gorgas on January 09, 2019, 10:00:10 AM
Rebuild is very dangerous take care as the spring will fly out if not properly compressed and secured.

Quote from: Brad Ipsen CLC #737 on January 09, 2019, 10:27:30 PM.....Read the shop manual and how to remove the springs and make adjustments.  As long as the car is still heavy (engine and body work on the car) it is safe to remove the springs.

Even if the car is heavy enough, a way to totally prevent the spring from flying "out if not properly compressed and secured", is to use a strong chain.  You put 1 or 2 loops of the chain around the frame above the spring, with the other end under the jack supporting the lower arm which holds the bottom of the spring.  Secure the two ends of the chain with a master link or a nut and bolt.  If you like, send me a PM or email to jaysfriedman@yahoo.com for further details.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

39LaSalleDriver

#10
Thanks for the responses thus far from everyone. I had already searched the forums here extensively so I'm already aware of some of the suggestions presented here. I guess I'm fishing for more detailed information I've not seen covered already.

I've concluded that where I can, I'd like to reuse as many OEM parts as I already have as possible, and just replace the rubber components. Obviously, if any of my parts are worn out or damaged, they'll have to be replaced and I'll do what it takes from there. The issue I have right now is everything is still on the car, and it's a big greasy mess under there. That makes it difficult to determine which parts out and out need replacing. I don't really figure I'll be at a point of being able to tear it apart until at least April so I am in the pre-planning and parts gathering phase.

This thread may end up running rather long as I'm sure I'll have all sorts of questions. The first of which is, is it possible to reuse the upper and lower outer pins, and inner arm shaft I have (replacing the rubber of course)?

Also, am I correct in believing that my inner arm shaft is of the type which only has a rubber bushing of the type that Steele offers? Thanks
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

novetti

Do you have access to a lathe? King Pin bushing reamer? Or machining shop services?

I am just saying that because I have a similar task waiting for me in one 54' Cad project I have waiting for me in the garage.

After buying parts of lower quality, stuff that don't exactly fit etc in the past,this time my plan is to disassemble first, clean, inspect to make sure what needs to be replaced or not, then buy what I need and plan for machining and adjusting if necessary.

For example I had in the past reused kin pins (turning them in a lathe if the wear present was small), and machined and reamed the bronze bushings to fit the new king pin diameter.

Fixing these systems was never ''plug and play'' even in the past with quality spares available, even less likely today.

The machining these requires is simple (its a lathe, a saw, and reamer for 90% of the times) so not overly complex and expensive.

my 2 cc

cheers

Julio
54' Iris Blue (Preservation)
54' Cabot Gray (Restoration)
58' Lincoln Continental Convertible (Restoration)
58' Ford Skyliner (Preservation)

Daryl Chesterman

I know nothing about the LaSalle suspension, but in reading your post I do have a few things for you to think about.  Remember that every time you replace something that affects the alignment, you will have to get the car realigned, or suffer uneven tire wear on your new tires.  As for the wheel bearings, they will not be affected at all due to misalignment--they carry the weight of the car either way!  I would take it to the alignment shop that is going to install the king pins and bushings and line-bore them, and ask them to do an assessment of the front suspension.  The alignment shop technician will pry, push and pull on each joint to assess whether the parts in question need to be renewed.If everything but the king pins and bushings is still tight, and only needs replacement rubber bushings, seals, etc., just do the king pins and bushings and wait on the rest until you can afford to finish it in one more session.  This will save your new tires and only require one more alignment.  The shop will be able to give you a labor estimate for each needed job, or, if there are things that you are capable of doing, you can take that into account, and do what you can afford.    I, along with most of the others above, recommend you use the quality parts, and the job will never have to be done again, in your life time!!!

One other tip is to use a good quality moly grease for greasing the steering and suspension parts.  The moly bonds with the metal parts to form a very good wear surface that will outlast just about any other No. 2 grease you can use, even a synthetic.  Do a little research on this and I think you will come to the same conclusion.    I have a 1973 C1500 Chevrolet pickup with over 300,000 miles, and it still has the original upper and lower ball joints and tie rod ends, that are still in good condition.  This pickup spent most of its life on the farm and saw its share of dirt and gravel roads.  The alignment shop attributed this longevity to my using a moly grease, the same that I used on my farm equipment.  YMMV

Daryl Chesterman

Steve Passmore

Jon, You are under a misinterpretation about the rubber parts. On the front suspension the bushes are all metal except for the anti roll bar. All other rubbers are only dust shields so you will have to use the complete kit if yours is worn. All parts of the kit have to be used.         I have never seen a worn out inner lower pin without it's end bushes being shot as well. Similar with the King pins, pin, bearing and bushes will all wear together.  Just a note, don't believe everything you see in 'Steele Rubber' books, they don't always get it right.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

harvey b

If you have a master parts book,you can look up the original part numbers to use in your search,i use mine all the time to hunt on Ebay,has saved me many times.All the cad and lasalle parts are not the same,different series,different runs of cars.I would not buy a stick of gum without first checking the book,it is worth its weight in gold.You will be surprised at how many variations of these parts.The books are repopped on Ebay,see them all the time,get one you will never regret it. Harveyb
Harvey Bowness

39LaSalleDriver

Quote from: Steve Passmore on January 11, 2019, 06:05:30 AM
Jon, You are under a misinterpretation about the rubber parts. On the front suspension the bushes are all metal except for the anti roll bar. All other rubbers are only dust shields so you will have to use the complete kit if yours is worn. All parts of the kit have to be used.         I have never seen a worn out inner lower pin without it's end bushes being shot as well. Similar with the King pins, pin, bearing and bushes will all wear together.  Just a note, don't believe everything you see in 'Steele Rubber' books, they don't always get it right.

Steve, I think you are correct about my misinterpretation on some of this. Bear with me as I've never taken the suspension apart on anything before. I didn't realize until I saw this and a couple of other things I've read that it seems (unless I'm still misunderstanding) the pivot points wear directly on those threads. Seems counter intuitive to me but I guess things will clarify themselves when I take it apart. I tend to learn by doing a lot better.

Perhaps the part that's worrying me the most IS the control arm shaft. Mine appears to be the earlier? type that has no grease zerks on them (see attached photo for style that I seem to have). From what I can tell, the reproduction suppliers all have a type that do. Hopefully, as Brad suggests, mine won't be terribly worn.

As a side note, I don't necessarily take any vendors descriptions as gospel for anything. That being said, Steele "appears" to have the parts from what I can tell. And to some degree I have to take it on face value that indeed those parts fit on what they say it will until proven otherwise. That's why I am posting here...to get advice from those who have experience with these cars and know them best before I grab wrenches and start tearing stuff apart.

Quote from: novetti on January 10, 2019, 06:24:59 PM
After buying parts of lower quality, stuff that don't exactly fit etc in the past,this time my plan is to disassemble first, clean, inspect to make sure what needs to be replaced or not, then buy what I need and plan for machining and adjusting if necessary.

Likewise, this is the approach I think I am going to use. As tempting as it is to buy a "kit", and as much as it pains me, I've concluded I'm better served pulling my car off the road for the next 2-3 months, pulling the whole steering and suspension section out, cleaning it up and then assessing what I am going to need.


Quote from: harvey b on January 12, 2019, 07:05:02 AM
master parts list...get one you will never regret it

One of the first things I bought when I got the car. I certainly value it but it has it's limitations. Those numbers are great if the seller knows what those numbers are, has the original packaging, or if they are made by GM. If they are made by let's say Moog, those numbers quickly become useless unless you have a Moog catalog which cross references their own part numbers vs. GMs part numbers.

Quote from: Brad Ipsen CLC #737 on January 09, 2019, 10:27:30 PM
Generally all of these parts, outer upper and lower pins, tie rod ends and king pins are available NOS on eBay given a little time and effort to collect them.  The inner lower shaft and bushings not so much but they are not usually worn so much.  I am talking 1940 here and I think 39 maybe different on the inner lower.  Get the shocks rebuilt.  Your steering gear may be okay but they do get wear and damage and this is expensive to fix.  Read the shop manual and how to remove the springs and make adjustments.  As long as the car is still heavy (engine and body work on the car) it is safe to remove the springs.

I really think this is the direction I'm going to go unless I hit a brick wall. Plan now is to redo the whole steering and suspension system including shocks and springs. Might as well do it all now while I have it apart.


Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on January 10, 2019, 08:52:43 PM
One other tip is to use a good quality moly grease for greasing the steering and suspension parts.  The moly bonds with the metal parts to form a very good wear surface that will outlast just about any other No. 2 grease you can use, even a synthetic.  Do a little research on this and I think you will come to the same conclusion.

Definitely sounds like a good plan.

Thanks again for the help guys. I hate being a burden on folks, but I really like to think this kind of stuff through before I start willy nilly tearing things apart. So I apologize if I seem to lack focus even though I am quite the opposite. I am an information hoarder and this is how I "think out loud" and look at different plans to take action. I make no claims to be a mechanic, and I have no support system beyond my books, the internet, you guys here, and learning by doing. Basically, I am "man alone" out here in my driveway rebuilding an 80 year old car and this board has been an invaluable resource.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019