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Need More Hydro-Electric Help!

Started by FabCad, January 13, 2019, 01:54:42 PM

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FabCad

I just got done going through the entire hydro-electric system on my 1950 Cadillac. Replaced all the rubber hoses, cleaned the valve under the rear seat, and cleaned the firewall pump. I’m switching from brake fluid to ATF, and filled the pump reservoir with fluid. When I go to operate the system, the pump motor activates (motor spins) but I’m not getting any fluid to the cylinders. Facing the firewall, I have the line going into the top port on the left side, and going into the bottom port on the right side. Does the system need to be primed or something? Could the motor work, but not pump fluid for some reason?
1948 Sedanette
1949 Convertible
1950 Convertible
1957 Biarritz
1960 Convertible

Jim Salmi #21340

My '52 system has a split in one of the cylinders that I will have to deal with when the weather warms up, so I am interested in your post.  My shop manual does say that one filling of the reservoir may not be sufficient to fill the system up from scratch.  Have you rechecked the fluid level?  Have you tried disconnecting one of the lines and then trying to see if it squirts fluid when you push the button?   Also, the shop manual says to put windows all the way down and seat all the way back when you flush and fill.  I assume you did it that way (?)  I wonder if you might have an obstruction in the main line, but that would seem unlikely.  I wish I had better insights.  Looking forward to how this plays itself out.  Please keep us posted.
1952 Cadillac Series 62 Sedan

Bobby B

Probably needs to be Bled. There's most likely air trapped in the lines. Hopefully you flushed the old fluids out. Brake fluid doesn't play well with ATF....
                                                                  Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

FabCad

#3
Quote from: Jim Salmi #21340 on January 13, 2019, 04:22:07 PM
Have you rechecked the fluid level?  Have you tried disconnecting one of the lines and then trying to see if it squirts fluid when you push the button?   Also, the shop manual says to put windows all the way down and seat all the way back when you flush and fill.  I assume you did it that way (?)

All the windows are down, top is down, and seat is back. The reservoir is full with fluid. I just disconnected one of the lines at the pump, powered it, and no fluid is coming out. Must be a problem with the pump. I’m a little confused because the motor operatesâ€"seems like it should be pumping fluid....

Quote from: Bobby B on January 13, 2019, 04:49:32 PM
Hopefully you flushed the old fluids out. Brake fluid doesn't play well with ATF....

Yes, flushed the majority of brake fluid out of the lines. There still may be some in the cylinders, but not sure what I can do about that....
1948 Sedanette
1949 Convertible
1950 Convertible
1957 Biarritz
1960 Convertible

Jerome506237DX

It sounds to me you have an electrical issue here, maybe your pump solenoid is not activated when you operate a switch? You should hear a click when a solenoid is activated.

1950 Coupe de Ville
1956 Oldsmobile Super 88

FabCad

Yes, when I operate the switches, I do hear a click at the solenoid. But now the motor is working intermittently. I have an extra solenoid and switched them out, but same result.
1948 Sedanette
1949 Convertible
1950 Convertible
1957 Biarritz
1960 Convertible

Jim Salmi #21340

Sounds like you've isolated the problem to the pump.  Maybe electrical connection or internal short.  I had mine rebuilt by a local guy who does old car electricals.  Not more than about a hundred bucks as I remember.
1952 Cadillac Series 62 Sedan

FabCad

Yes, there's definitely a problem with the pump. At this point the pump is no longer working. When operating the switches, I hear a "click" at the solenoid but the motor no longer operates. In the wiring diagram, I see a 25A circuit breaker. Perhaps I blew the breaker? Anybody know where this is located--in the main fuse panel or somewhere else? 
1948 Sedanette
1949 Convertible
1950 Convertible
1957 Biarritz
1960 Convertible

Glen

My first test would be to momentarily jumper the battery directly to the pump, bypassing the solenoid.  This would tell you if the problem is in the pump or solenoid.   
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

bullet bob

Agree with Glen. Had the same symptoms, solenoid would click but no pump. Replaced the solenoid, solved the problem.
Honda Goldwing 1800  "I don't need no stinkin' map, I've still got gas"

J. Gomez

The 25A CB on your drawing is to protect the path for the power from the switches to the solenoid, the motor will get power directly from the solenoid contact once it is energized, similar design as the solenoid for the starter. 

The rectangle box next to the pump (left side on your picture) attach to the firewall looks to be a CB ??? someone with this vintage vehicle can chime in if this is the CB you are inquiring about.

HTH
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

FabCad

Quote from: Glen on January 15, 2019, 02:50:17 AM
My first test would be to momentarily jumper the battery directly to the pump, bypassing the solenoid.  This would tell you if the problem is in the pump or solenoid.   

Good idea. Not sure why I didn’t think of that :) Just tested it and the motor is not working. It was working on Sunday, but no longer. So it’s either jammed or fried. I’ll take it apart and see....
1948 Sedanette
1949 Convertible
1950 Convertible
1957 Biarritz
1960 Convertible

FabCad

Quote from: J. Gomez on January 15, 2019, 08:38:35 AM
The rectangle box next to the pump (left side on your picture) attach to the firewall looks to be a CB ??? someone with this vintage vehicle can chime in if this is the CB you are inquiring about.

Found this troubleshooting resource: http://www.1949cadillac.com/category/hydro-lectrics/
But not sure if the mechanism mounted to the firewall next to the pump is the circuit breaker referenced in the article...
1948 Sedanette
1949 Convertible
1950 Convertible
1957 Biarritz
1960 Convertible

Joe V

#13
Yes.  The block next to the pump is the breaker.  Was the pump and system working before rebuild? 

As far as troubleshooting goes, you don't have to prime or bleed the system when it is working correctly.  Disconnect and blow out all lines if not done.  If motor is not running as noted, its either ground problem or dirty/corroded/damaged motor brushes and/or commutator and pump motor rebuild is required.

It's a little different configuration than my 49 pump, but if you get the pump to run again, there is likely a pressure adjustment screw that increases the pressure when the pump runs.  If needed screw in or out to vary pressure and see if it pumps fluid.  If not, crack open the pump to see if it is packed with old brake fluid and clean.  Old brake fluid gets like dirt.

If the pump is running and clean but no fluid pumping out, it likely needs to be rebuilt.  If it is pumping some fluid, the only way to truly tell if it is working is to use a pressure gauge to test at the pump outlet and then at the cylinder.  If you don't get 250psi, the pump needs to be rebuilt.  If the pump motor armature shaft is corroded where it goes into the pump housing a rebuild kit may not solve the problem and you need to find a different pump. 

One test you can do if you don't have a fluid pressure gauge is to take the pump out and mount it on a large clear plastic glass or similar in place of the reservoir.  Fill the glass with fluid and jump power to the pump.  No fluid action, rebuild needed.  If the pump churns the fluid like a milkshake with lots of visible air bubbles, rebuild needed but pump may be bad.  Good luck.

FabCad

Thanks for the info, Joe!

Quote from: Joe Vastola on January 16, 2019, 10:57:15 PM
Was the pump and system working before rebuild? 

Yes, it was.

Quote from: Joe Vastola on January 16, 2019, 10:57:15 PM
Disconnect and blow out all lines if not done.  If motor is not running as noted, its either ground problem or dirty/corroded/damaged motor brushes and/or commutator and pump motor rebuild is required.

Lines are blown out and motor is grounded.

Quote from: Joe Vastola on January 16, 2019, 10:57:15 PM
It's a little different configuration than my 49 pump, but if you get the pump to run again, there is likely a pressure adjustment screw that increases the pressure when the pump runs.  If needed screw in or out to vary pressure and see if it pumps fluid.  If not, crack open the pump to see if it is packed with old brake fluid and clean.  Old brake fluid gets like dirt.

No pressure adjustment screw on this model. Pump is very clean inside. It was converted to ATF at some point in the past, so no brake fluid build up.

Quote from: Joe Vastola on January 16, 2019, 10:57:15 PM
If the pump is running and clean but no fluid pumping out, it likely needs to be rebuilt.  If it is pumping some fluid, the only way to truly tell if it is working is to use a pressure gauge to test at the pump outlet and then at the cylinder.  If you don't get 250psi, the pump needs to be rebuilt.  If the pump motor armature shaft is corroded where it goes into the pump housing a rebuild kit may not solve the problem and you need to find a different pump. One test you can do if you don't have a fluid pressure gauge is to take the pump out and mount it on a large clear plastic glass or similar in place of the reservoir.  Fill the glass with fluid and jump power to the pump.  No fluid action, rebuild needed.  If the pump churns the fluid like a milkshake with lots of visible air bubbles, rebuild needed but pump may be bad.  Good luck.

Last night I took the motor apart, cleaned it, and then bench tested it. The motor works again. But I can't get it to pump any fluid out. I called Hydro-Electric this morning and got some advice. They say the pump likely needs to be primed and recommended the following procedure: (1) Temporarily remove the relief valve spring, (2) Plug all ports, (3) Run it to prime it, creating vacuum inside, (4) Replace relief valve spring, install it and operate windows/seat/top keeping reservoir full. 

I'll give it a shot this weekend.... 
1948 Sedanette
1949 Convertible
1950 Convertible
1957 Biarritz
1960 Convertible

C.Ospina

hello, I have the same problem, this pump is very difficult and I have been trying to solve it for years, I think that the pump should be repaired, but by someone who really knows the subject. I bought a second pump on ebay for spare parts, I have 2 pumps and I haven't been able to. She left the photo of the exploded view of the pump.

fishnjim

These come sup occasionally.
If you get stuck, call these guys.
https://www.hydroe.com/

C.Ospina

I called these guys and they don't work with this type of horizontal pump, same as the photo, they recommended me to change the pump,