Being judged on power steering hoses

[Bob Kielar]

I have a 1955 Cadillac Fleetwood. I cannot find original power steering hoses for my Cadillac. I would like to replace them since they are 64 years old. If I do replace them like the ones from Caddy reproductions will I lose points at Grand Nationals?

Regards,

Bob Kielar

[J. Gomez]

Bob,

If the reproduction one do not have the reducer at the mid-point toward the steering box, I would take a while guess to say “Yes, it would be point reduction”, other could chime in.   

Not sure if you have your old one and if by luck you may find a local hydraulic shop around town that could re-used the same couplers/reducer and crimp new hoses, or maybe made one that would be similar.

Good luck….!

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Judges are generally thorough, but...

I myself would not worry about the "possible" chance that a judge would pounce on this rather unavoidable change. Just don't hit on his wife or run down his car. (I don't know which would annoy him the most...)

It is admirable to want to be as authentic as possible, but in this case, I think I would err on the side of safety and not try to recrimp the old fitting on a new part. (I am advising this not knowing at all whether it would work or not.)

Best of luck.

[1959Fleetwood]

Hello Bob,

I would not worry about the crimp fitting in the middle of the pressure hose, safety is more important ! Don't mess with old hoses or fittings. You cannot re-use the old crimp fitttings, because once they are crimped they will stay that way. Original a crimp fitting is a metal sleeve that has a slithly bigger outer diameter than the hose it should go on. The pressure hose itself has a woven steel inner core to resist oil pressure but also acts as a resistor when the sleeve is crimped to the disairable smaller diameter and thus the hose cannot pop out the sleeve. For new hoses you also may try Cadillac Parts LTD in New Jersey, to my knowledge they have the correct style.
Good Luck

Matern Harmsel
CLC 15331

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Bill Anderson recently recommended I read the judge's manual.
Mike Josephic sent it to me as a .pdf
The wrong hose, clamp, decal, dirt on a shock, etc are point deductions.

The random factors are the 'pickyness' of the judge, whether or not people like you,
and/or if you're a working member of the club hosting the show, locally. Politics!

I'm learning...

I can't afford to join all the clubs I want to show The Ark at. I'm not retired like all the others, I have to work, so I don't have the time to give them in staging/running an event. The result is, and I know it, that $5 trophy may never come. Regardless of how much I spend restoring The Ark.

MHO, you the owner have to decide if you're trying to create a President's Preservation Award winner and are willing to spend the fortune and lose your mind in the process. Keeping the random factors in mind as well.

OR if you just love your car and want to have a really cool cruiser as 'correct' as possible to take to shows and share with other people.

I'm the latter. Now.

And that's quite a revelation in just a year!

\m/
Laurie

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Laurie, just a gentle reminder. You don't "make" a President's Preservation Award. The idea there is to NOT change stuff. I think you were thinking of regular judging where you try to get it "back" to what it looked like originally. Both are admirable pursuits.

Even more admirable is what you are doing with the Ark. Fixing it as your means allow and having the time of your life doing to. Keep it up. Every time you post, you remind me of that horrible '70 Fleetwood we "had" to drive for a time with it's primered doghouse. From the windshield back, it was a great looking Caddie including the interior. It ran great. I can't remember how or where we got rid of it when it finally gave up the ghost. Probably we still had the small auto parts yard in town and I told the guy to come get it.

(That was wayyyy back when before anyone started needing parts from such a "new" car.)

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Laurie, just a gentle reminder. You don't "make" a President's Preservation Award. The idea there is to NOT change stuff. I think you were thinking of regular judging where you try to get it "back" to what it looked like originally. Both are admirable pursuits.

Even more admirable is what you are doing with the Ark. Fixing it as your means allow and having the time of your life doing to. Keep it up. Every time you post, you remind me of that horrible '70 Fleetwood we "had" to drive for a time with it's primered doghouse. From the windshield back, it was a great looking Caddie including the interior. It ran great. I can't remember how or where we got rid of it when it finally gave up the ghost. Probably we still had the small auto parts yard in town and I told the guy to come get it.

(That was wayyyy back when before anyone started needing parts from such a "new" car.)

Hey Barry,
you got me, linguistic technicality!

Have any pics of your 70 Fleetwood???

\m/
Laurie

[Jason Edge]

Bill Anderson recently recommended I read the judge's manual.
Mike Josephic sent it to me as a .pdf
The wrong hose, clamp, decal, dirt on a shock, etc are point deductions.

The random factors are the 'pickyness' of the judge, whether or not people like you,
and/or if you're a working member of the club hosting the show, locally. Politics!

I'm learning...
\m/
Laurie

I have judged several times and have to say that the statement above which implies that we judge based on who we like, who is hosting the show, and other club politics is 100% false.   We have a judging sheet where we methodically go down it and look at Operations (does it work), Authenticity (is it correct for the car when new), Workmanship and condition. Each category can have deductions up to 5 points. Whether your antenna goes up or down, or you have an aftermarket brake setup, or dirt and grime covering your engine, has nothing to do with your club affiliations or politics.  It is my understanding that you have neither had a car judged at the CLC Grand National nor judged yourself and would suggest going thru the process before casting judgment on judges or the judging process (no pun intended).

Keep in mind we are there to judge a car on 4 criteria … not just authenticity. It is meant to be a learning experience for both the judges and participants. I do not know how many times I have judged and heard a car owner say "I didn't know that wasn't working. I'll definitely get that fixed when I get home."  or "I never knew these cars came with that."  For most the judging process is a fun learning experience … for others not so much.  It is what you make of it.  The judging day can be brutal on judges, but I look at it as an exciting opportunity to learn more about these fine automobiles and our CLC members.   

Back to a power steering pump hose ... so you may get dinged 1 point for incorrect clamp, etc., but keep in mind you can easily lose more points if you show up with a cracking, leaking hose with dirt and grease all over it.  Members continue to get caught up with 1 or 2 point authenticity deductions here and there when they may have a larger deductions in the area of operations, workmanship and condition.  1 point out of 560 or 610 (depending on model year) is usually not going to affect the overall judging results.

As a reminder, here are the deductions you may receive in judged classes. I have also attached a summary I put together some time back.

Deductions
- Each category can have deductions up to 5 points.
- Deductions are made for Operations, Authenticity, Workmanship, and Condition. 
- 1966 and prior vehicles can receive a max of 560 points of deductions.
- 1967 and later vehicles can receive a max of 610 points of deductions.
- The final scores are converted to a 100 point scale for awards scoring. 
- See Official CLC Judge’s Manual for more details.

As far as Bill Anderson's suggestion to read the Judge's Manual, I can't help but assume that you glossed thru it based on the comment regarding creating a Past President's award winner.  I would suggest that you go back and read the manual cover to cover in detail.  It helps me to do a straight forward read thru, then go through and read a 2nd time really combing thru the details, as I prepare for Grand National judging.   I hope you consider having your car judged and stepping up and judging at the 2019 Grand National.  It truly is a fantastic experience!

[Lexi]

A number of us just did some posts on this in the Mid-Century Forum. I noted that McVey's offers re-pops of these which do include the reducer splice in the center. Lou advised that there were still some differences, but they are close. The Authenticity Manual for 54-56 Cadillac makes a point of noting the "splice" and discusses the power steering hose. So, the judges may very well be aware of this matter, if they consult this manual (or in the course of their experience). How that would impact their scoring I have no idea. Clay/Lexi

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

I have judged several times and have to say that the statement above which implies that we judge based on who we like, who is hosting the show, and other club politics is 100% false.   We have a judging sheet where we methodically go down it and look at Operations (does it work), Authenticity (is it correct for the car when new), Workmanship and condition. Each category can have deductions up to 5 points. Whether your antenna goes up or down, or you have an aftermarket brake setup, or dirt and grime covering your engine, has nothing to do with your club affiliations or politics.  It is my understanding that you have neither had a car judged at the CLC Grand National nor judged yourself and would suggest going thru the process before casting judgment on judges or the judging process (no pun intended).

Keep in mind we are there to judge a car on 4 criteria … not just authenticity. It is meant to be a learning experience for both the judges and participants. I do not know how many times I have judged and heard a car owner say "I didn't know that wasn't working. I'll definitely get that fixed when I get home."  or "I never knew these cars came with that."  For most the judging process is a fun learning experience … for others not so much.  It is what you make of it.  The judging day can be brutal on judges, but I look at it as an exciting opportunity to learn more about these fine automobiles and our CLC members.   

Back to a power steering pump hose ... so you may get dinged 1 point for incorrect clamp, etc., but keep in mind you can easily lose more points if you show up with a cracking, leaking hose with dirt and grease all over it.  Members continue to get caught up with 1 or 2 point authenticity deductions here and there when they may have a larger deductions in the area of operations, workmanship and condition.  1 point out of 560 or 610 (depending on model year) is usually not going to affect the overall judging results.

As a reminder, here are the deductions you may receive in judged classes. I have also attached a summary I put together some time back.

Deductions
- Each category can have deductions up to 5 points.
- Deductions are made for Operations, Authenticity, Workmanship, and Condition. 
- 1966 and prior vehicles can receive a max of 560 points of deductions.
- 1967 and later vehicles can receive a max of 610 points of deductions.
- The final scores are converted to a 100 point scale for awards scoring. 
- See Official CLC Judge’s Manual for more details.

As far as Bill Anderson's suggestion to read the Judge's Manual, I can't help but assume that you glossed thru it based on the comment regarding creating a Past President's award winner.  I would suggest that you go back and read the manual cover to cover in detail.  It helps me to do a straight forward read thru, then go through and read a 2nd time really combing thru the details, as I prepare for Grand National judging.   I hope you consider having your car judged and stepping up and judging at the 2019 Grand National.  It truly is a fantastic experience!

Jason this is the problem with pulling the trigger before you're sure of your target. Murder 2 simply gets reduced to Manslaughter.

Note my comments about judge's are in a separate paragraph, ergo a separate thought. And you also missed the fact my comment was aimed at (pardon the pun) LOCAL shows. One would 'hope' that Cadillac shows/GN were/are unbiased. Club politics at local shows are the norm, in my VERY FEW shows with The Ark I've seen it myself. When an "outsider" showroom Bandit loses to a club member/show worker's Bandit that looks like it was driven off a cliff, they're might be bias. I could be wrong. Be advised, these are 'club' shows, local shows, non-Cadillac. I'm hoping Cadillac club shows have judges as pure as the driven snow such as your good self.

\m/
Laurie

[Jason Edge]

For a really deep dive into CLC judging the upcoming Judging Workshop on April 27 would be recommended.  For more information click on https://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/events/EventDetails.aspx?id=1167860&group=

[mario]

I remember watching a mecum action last year and a gorgeous cadillac crossed the block. I'll never forget what the moderator said. He started off by saying that the car was a hundred point car, by anyone's standard, as everything was factory original with very low miles; however, the CLC would most likely deduct a point in judging because it didn't have the original air in the tires!!!
So there is a perception out there, in the general public, about how the CLC judge.
I know he is only a TV guy, but he still said it.
Ciao,
Mario Caimotto

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

I remember watching a mecum action last year and a gorgeous cadillac crossed the block. I'll never forget what the moderator said. He started off by saying that the car was a hundred point car, by anyone's standard, as everything was factory original with very low miles; however, the CLC would most likely deduct a point in judging because it didn't have the original air in the tires!!!
So there is a perception out there, in the general public, about how the CLC judge.
I know he is only a TV guy, but he still said it.
Ciao,
Mario Caimotto

I saw that! LOL! That was John Kraman, he's a pretty sharp guy. He and Stephen Cox are interesting to listen to because they know what they're talking about. The dolts on Barrett-Jackson drive me up the wall.

\m/
Laurie

[Jason Edge]

A number of us just did some posts on this in the Mid-Century Forum. I noted that McVey's offers re-pops of these which do include the reducer splice in the center. Lou advised that there were still some differences, but they are close. The Authenticity Manual for 54-56 Cadillac makes a point of noting the "splice" and discusses the power steering hose. So, the judges may very well be aware of this matter, if they consult this manual (or in the course of their experience). How that would impact their scoring I have no idea. Clay/Lexi

While I haven't checked the power steering hose offerings, for the 1963/64 Cadillacs, I have been able to source items like spring ring terminal battery cables, oil filler caps, etc. from places like Corvette Central and Heartbeat City which supply items for the Vettes and Camaros. Often the "of the same era" GM items are very close if not exactly the same. They have very deep catalogues due to the big demand/volume for these cars and if you do your homework, you can sometimes find a match. On the spring ring terminal battery cables for the 63/64 Cadillacs I found an almost exact match for the 1969 Camaro … actually one cable was an exact match and the other on 1/2" longer than factory stock length!

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Boy, will that extra half inch cost you...



Thank you, Jason. Late last night, I almost put "So?" as an answer for the "original air" post, and erased it as thinking someone might think I was one of those "stuffy old guys." You provided another smart-alec answer that was even better. BW