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Forget about the internal combustion-- Cadillac all electric

Started by James Landi, February 05, 2019, 03:00:58 PM

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James Landi


TJ Hopland

I dunno, it seems like there are plenty of high end all electrics that are either available now or will be available well before the Cadillac version.  Seems like what they should be working on is a $50k Model X sort of thing.  The Model X is the mid size crossover suv sort of thing.  That seems to be the class that is most popular at the moment.

The other thing that is lacking from everyone other than Tesla is a fast charging network.   Looks like they have about 1500 locations now and as far as I know that is way way more than anyone else has.   Seems like working a deal to use their standard and stations would be a win for everyone.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Scot Minesinger

I see the EV as the "grocery getter" or commuter for now.  Typical drive less than 100 miles each day, charge it at home during the night when electric demand is low.  Then in the near future I would use a fossil fuel vehicle to drive to relatives 500 miles away until quick charging stations abound along the highway.  This would meet my lifestyle requirements. 

Based on advertisements and material available to read, the EV market will be very competitive in the next few years.  Probably cost, reliability (fast charging/range) and styling will dominate consumer buying decisions.

I love a RWD big gasoline V-8, but the logic of an EV is difficult to deny.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

R S Steven

So durning the hot summer, which will get priority when the power plants can't handle the electrical usage.  Car charging stations or cooling of homes?  The electrical grid can't handle all of it.

I know which one I want....my house/workshop cool.


z3skybolt

Last fall during a overnight campsite stay in Colby KS my wife and I watched a couple of young guys roll in next to us in a Tesla.  The city campsites were unattended and empty except for us and the Tesla. They hooked into the campsite electric, sat there reading for a couple of hours....then off they went.  Kind of like leaving the pump without paying for fuel. Don't know how far that got them. But I've had other RVers tell me that they have seen the same thing from time to time at lightly attended campgrounds. 

Bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

James Landi

No sure how many of us would put up with having to wait several hours for our vintage cars to cool down so we could travel another 250 miles...  still don't "get" the attraction of the Tesla-- the New York Times "Wheels" writer did a test drive in one several winters ago, and had to be "flat bedded" to a charging station... additionally, the test car had to be "dragged" on to the truck... electric brake would not release--- no power

Scot Minesinger

The anticdotal stories of the teenagers charging a Prius (which has a gas engine and only goes about 40 miles on charge alone) and the Tesla on a flat bed are not really typical experiences.  If they were these cars would not sell.  I have raised some teenagers and when it comes to common sense about stuff like the Prius you wrote about, even with an A average in school, they sometimes are clueless on many important aspects of life, such as waiting 3 hours to charge a car that will go 40 miles (a $2.50 gallon of gas would have accomplished the same thing, let's see 6 man hours wasted to save $2.50 - oh that is about $0.42 per hour pay out!).

The reality is once charging times go down and range increases the EV market share will increase dramatically.

Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

David Greenburg

If you don’t get the appeal of the Tesla, try driving a Model S with a heavy foot.  It will put a smile on your face even if it’s not in “Ludicrous” mode, which gives you 0-60 in 2.8 seconds.
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

35-709

Suppose though (after getting past the price of the car), I want to drive it from Florida to upstate New York, as I am wont to do on occasion?  By myself I do it in 2 days in Big Red, with my wife, 3 days.  How long would it take in a Tesla, or any other electric car you can buy today?  At my age, I'm not prepared to waste THAT much time on the road, I don't even buy green bananas anymore!   ;D
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Scot Minesinger

Geoff,

Agree that right now an EV is not a good choice to drive from FL to NY (on occasion), but most people drive less than 100 miles a day (or certainly under 150 miles), and so an EV is good for that.  Then drive your gasoline vehicle on long trips for now.  Then in time with a good charging infrastructure and short charging times coupled with longer ranges - gasoline vehicle use will diminish considerably.

Things change, and I try and accept what I do not like but is inevitable.  Nothing would make me happier than EV's cause impotence and big RWD V-8's are back.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

TJ Hopland

Don't they still say that 12,000 miles per year is an average for Americans?  Thats around 33 miles per day.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

35-709

Has anyone come up with or can anyone come up with a figure for the electrical generating capacity that is going to be needed in the future when the entire country is driving EVs, compared to the generating capacity we have today?  There is already a great hue and cry and wringing of hands everytime someone proposes building an electric power plant to keep up with our needs today.  I can't imagine that the number of new generating plants needed will be anything less than huge.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Scot Minesinger

#12
Yes, the electrical grid is designed to deliver maximum peak demand at all times.  Kind of like  a 16 lane highway to manage rush hour with no traffic jams.  Peak electrical use is generally summer afternoons when the ac is operating full bore up through about 9pm when ac demands slack and some lights start turning off.  Low electric demand is at night.  Probably the majority of charging will be at night.  That way the electrical grid will be minimally impacted.

Yes, Point is that whether it is 33 miles per day, or 150 miles per day an EV probably now will take care of all that, and only trips in excess of 150 miles bring the use of EV into question.  In a few years I may replace my daily driver with EV, maybe a Cadillac.  I would still hold on to my my Ram 1500 RWD gasoline fueld V-8 for the long trips, mileage be dam**d.

Sure some obscure stories about short commings of an EV are hopefully amusing but not the majority of what everyone experiences.  I'm sure the EV users have more negative stories about the gasoline cars.

EV's are at this point sure looking like the future of personal transportation.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

David Greenburg

I agree EV’s aren’t quite ready for prime time when it comes to a real road trip, although a Tesla supercharger station can fully recharge a Model S in 75 minutes at this point, and presumably charging technology and efficiency will only get better as Cadillac and others get more engaged in EV’s.  Those superchargers are available on I-5 on the west coast, and are presumably also along I-95 for that Florida-NY run.  Maybe not yet is less populated area like Salt Lake to KC.
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

walt chomosh #23510

The question I have is, what is the cost to replace the 'battery" after it's usable life has come to an end?.....walt....tulsa,ok

MaR

Quote from: 35-709 on February 07, 2019, 10:05:07 AM
Has anyone come up with or can anyone come up with a figure for the electrical generating capacity that is going to be needed in the future when the entire country is driving EVs, compared to the generating capacity we have today?  There is already a great hue and cry and wringing of hands everytime someone proposes building an electric power plant to keep up with our needs today.  I can't imagine that the number of new generating plants needed will be anything less than huge.

One thing that is always overlooked when people talk about the increased electrical demand that EVs could cause is that refining gasoline uses a massive amount of electricity itself. A 15 gallon fill up consumes as much electricity as charging a long range EV battery. Also, more and more fast charging stations are adding solar and battery storage systems to smooth out demand spikes.

MaR

Quote from: David Greenburg on February 07, 2019, 11:08:35 AM
I agree EV’s aren’t quite ready for prime time when it comes to a real road trip, although a Tesla supercharger station can fully recharge a Model S in 75 minutes at this point, and presumably charging technology and efficiency will only get better as Cadillac and others get more engaged in EV’s.  Those superchargers are available on I-5 on the west coast, and are presumably also along I-95 for that Florida-NY run.  Maybe not yet is less populated area like Salt Lake to KC.

I have taken many road trips in our EVs. Our last long trip was 565 miles one way which required on charging stop that coincided with our lunch stop. The stop took about 45 minutes and we were on our way.

Ralph Messina CLC 4937

#17
If GM, and Cadillac in particular, follow the product development plans described in recent news releases, they are committing financial suicide in the name of some aspirational method of achieving an unobtainable goal. Henry Ford’s genius was not the assembly line, rather it was providing personal freedom. For the first time, the average man could get in a Model T and travel farther in one day than they ever dreamed.  If one accepts that man-made carbon pollution is causing climate change - this premise requires clear definition of terms and  evidence that man can truly impact it in a meaningful way - how did we decide that the current electric car concept is the most efficient way to design personal transportation?

The overall Tesla system layout, the most talked about electric,  is similar to that used in the Baker Electric Car of 100 years ago. The electricity to charge the batteries coming from “the holes in the wall” is not free. It’s generated by fuel used at a remote location and transmitted to the charging location. While much is made of solar and wind power, it amounts to about 3% of total production today after 20 years of enormous government subsidy â€" recall Solyndra and others still receiving subsides. Additionally, it requires huge land and environmental resources and employs current state of the art batteries that contain Lithium, a potentially dangerous and difficult  material to handle metal.  Disallowing fuels like coal, and nuclear, we’re left with natural gas - which is cleaner but still yields CO2 - to produce the electricity needed. If we had the ideal thermodynamic efficiency Carnot Cycle Heat Engine to drive the generators, they would still lose some 40% of the gas’s latent energy  in the conversion of  mechanical to electrical energy. There are also the subsequent transmission losses from  the generator to the “holes in that walls” we plug into. Why not use the natural gas as direct power for the vehicles and avoid the losses? We already have the basic infrastructure to deliver portable fuel to local distribution that can be modified for LNG. That also avoids the much larger and imminent  task of upgrading our electric grid to power even  30% market penetration by electric vehicles. Currently the local US Mail delivery trucks use LNG, and most of the buses in California are powered by natural gas. It would be interesting to consider the current growth craze of electric car if there was a competing group of LNG powered cars with similar government subsided support. I’ve yet to see a cradle to grave analysis of all the materials, fabrication energy, fuel and recycling efforts comparing these very different products. It is the total life cycle of material and resources that determine the benefits of one design vs another.

I believe Cadillac’s future is murky at best given the current direction. They became the “Standard of World” by knowing their business was in high quality, luxury cars. I sense that today they see themselves in the personal transportation business, which is something entirely different.

1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

TJ Hopland

The question about how much a new battery will cost is a reasonable one to ask.   

The original mass production Teslas had around 7000 18650 cells in them and the complete pack weighed 1200 pounds.  It basically is the whole floor of the car.  I think they have moved on from that exact style with some of the current models.  18650 is a generic naming convention for the physical size of the cell.  18mm x 65.0mm.    A AA cell is 14mm x 50 so not a heck of a lot bigger except they have a bunch of em.  They are in modules, I think 16 of them and each module has groups of cells that are independently monitored and can be variably charged on a group by group basis so there are some small wires and electronics associated with each group that all have to interconnect.  There is then a liquid cooling jacket that snakes through the whole pack and all the main buss bars not to mention the basic structure needed to safely contain 1200 pounds of batteries.  That pack in itself had to be quite the engineering project.

A single 18650 cell can range from $1 to $15 online.  Lets say Tesla gets a really good deal on some good ones and they are only $3 each, that is $21,000 just for the raw batteries not assembled into these packs which I bet isn't cheap even if they have a robot to do it.  I'm not sure if Tesla repairs packs or not but it does appear that its reasonable to replace individual modules within the main pack but it doesn't appear to be practical to replace individual cells. 

That then brings up the question of how reusable or recyclable are these things?   Apparently current lead acid car batteries are pretty easy to recycle about 90% of used ones into new ones.  You think about it it seems pretty logical and simple.   You are dealing with fairly big parts that likely separate easily.  Plastic, lead, and acid.   I can't imagine its that easy to recycle a AA/18650 like cell.   Lithium batteries are fairly thin layers of various materials stacked and sometimes rolled up.  I'm sure you can separate that stuff but I bet its not easy.

I remember in the pre production days of Tesla reading about the various battery options they had.   There was one company that had a system that was like 75% recyclable but the the size and weight was like 1/3 worse than just about all the other options.   Bigger issue was the cost.   Supposedly the prototypes were like 10X higher cost and they thought with some improvements and economy of scale they could maybe get it down to 5x.   I'm just guessing here but if they got $21,000 into just cells now we got to be talking at least $30k for a complete pack?   5x that would make a $150,000 pack so that makes for what a $200,000 car?   They were a hard enough sell at what $100 originally?  You can see why they didn't go that route.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

MaR

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 07, 2019, 04:12:11 PM
The question about how much a new battery will cost is a reasonable one to ask.   

The original mass production Teslas had around 7000 18650 cells in them and the complete pack weighed 1200 pounds.  It basically is the whole floor of the car.  I think they have moved on from that exact style with some of the current models.  18650 is a generic naming convention for the physical size of the cell.  18mm x 65.0mm.    A AA cell is 14mm x 50 so not a heck of a lot bigger except they have a bunch of em.  They are in modules, I think 16 of them and each module has groups of cells that are independently monitored and can be variably charged on a group by group basis so there are some small wires and electronics associated with each group that all have to interconnect.  There is then a liquid cooling jacket that snakes through the whole pack and all the main buss bars not to mention the basic structure needed to safely contain 1200 pounds of batteries.  That pack in itself had to be quite the engineering project.

A single 18650 cell can range from $1 to $15 online.  Lets say Tesla gets a really good deal on some good ones and they are only $3 each, that is $21,000 just for the raw batteries not assembled into these packs which I bet isn't cheap even if they have a robot to do it.  I'm not sure if Tesla repairs packs or not but it does appear that its reasonable to replace individual modules within the main pack but it doesn't appear to be practical to replace individual cells. 

That then brings up the question of how reusable or recyclable are these things?   Apparently current lead acid car batteries are pretty easy to recycle about 90% of used ones into new ones.  You think about it it seems pretty logical and simple.   You are dealing with fairly big parts that likely separate easily.  Plastic, lead, and acid.   I can't imagine its that easy to recycle a AA/18650 like cell.   Lithium batteries are fairly thin layers of various materials stacked and sometimes rolled up.  I'm sure you can separate that stuff but I bet its not easy.

I remember in the pre production days of Tesla reading about the various battery options they had.   There was one company that had a system that was like 75% recyclable but the the size and weight was like 1/3 worse than just about all the other options.   Bigger issue was the cost.   Supposedly the prototypes were like 10X higher cost and they thought with some improvements and economy of scale they could maybe get it down to 5x.   I'm just guessing here but if they got $21,000 into just cells now we got to be talking at least $30k for a complete pack?   5x that would make a $150,000 pack so that makes for what a $200,000 car?   They were a hard enough sell at what $100 originally?  You can see why they didn't go that route.

Currently, most salvage packs are recycled into standalone power systems or used in other conversions. This goes for packs for all manufacturers. None of the manufacturers (with the exception of Nissan) have published prices for replacement EV packs. I cannot recall anyone actually buying a replacement Tesla pack as they are all still under the standard 8 year warranty. GM has stated that they have never sold a pack for a Volt and Nissan sells the pack for the Leaf for ~$5000 installed.