Electric Cars in Severe Cold?

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

Found this on the 'net.  Interesting study as to how
the performance and range of electric automobiles can
suffer in severe cold.  It's a "no brainer" for anyone even
slightly familiar with electricity, but most of the "greenies"
only know how to throw a light switch.

Sad that Cadillac feels this is the "future" for them.
Until a better battery system and chemistry is developed
I don't feel they are practical for every day use.  That's
still years away.

https://weather.com/news/weather/video/aaa-extreme-cold-can-cut-electric-cars-range-up-to-40-percent

Mike

[MaR]

Found this on the 'net.  Interesting study as to how
the performance and range of electric automobiles can
suffer in severe cold.  It's a "no brainer" for anyone even
slightly familiar with electricity, but most of the "greenies"
only know how to throw a light switch.

Sad that Cadillac feels this is the "future" for them.
Until a better battery system and chemistry is developed
I don't feel they are practical for every day use.  That's
still years away.

https://weather.com/news/weather/video/aaa-extreme-cold-can-cut-electric-cars-range-up-to-40-percent

Mike

It your typical sensational clickbate article. The reality is that you can see around a 20% temporary reduction until the battery warms up. Doing simple thing like preconditioning the car while it’s still plugged in will reduce the range loss to almost greatly.

[INTMD8]

Seems the article is not far off?

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

[MaR]

Seems the article is not far off?

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

For every one person that you see with a complaint like that, there are hundreds with no problem at all. We have no idea how the person that posted those figures was driving or even if they are getting the rated range with their driving habits in normal conditions. It no different that some people complaining about not getting the rated MPG on a gas car vs people that have no problem hitting it at all.

[INTMD8]

Did you read any of the responses in the link I posted? There was a countless amount of people detailing their experience which included pre-heating and a similar range loss.

Not sure how that's one person with no supporting info?

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

A more technical study that may be of interest:

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/archive/is_li_ion_the_solution_for_the_electric_vehicle

Mike

[MaR]

Did you read any of the responses in the link I posted? There was a countless amount of people detailing their experience which included pre-heating and a similar range loss.

Not sure how that's one person with no supporting info?

I have been daily driving EVs for over five years now and have done over 100k miles with them. Yes, there are temporary range reductions when the car is dead cold in the winter. They are not nearly what the annually published articles lead you to believe. On top of that, newer battery chemistries are less susceptible to the temperature related fluctuations. 

[Scot Minesinger]

We had one cold day this winter in VA, and so I probably would make it using an EV.  This article on EV problems in cold weather is just not a justification for abandoning EV's.

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

It's not only cold weather, but hot climates as well.
Actually, very hot weather (as in Phoenix in summer,
100 degrees+) is harder on a battery than cold.  The
attached article in my 2nd post refers to this.

I'm not saying we should "abandon" EV's, but I do
think that battery technology has a way to go before
they will be comparable to the internal combustion
engine in terms of practicality and efficiency.

Maybe in 5-10 years.

Mike

[MaR]

It's not only cold weather, but hot climates as well.
Actually, very hot weather (as in Phoenix in summer,
100 degrees+) is harder on a battery than cold.  The
attached article in my 2nd post refers to this.

I'm not saying we should "abandon" EV's, but I do
think that battery technology has a way to go before
they will be comparable to the internal combustion
engine in terms of practicality and efficiency.

Maybe in 5-10 years.

Mike

The only EVs that had problems in the heat were the early Nissan Leaf cars. The Leaf does not have an active battery cooling system which is very hard on the battery. There is a taxi company called Tesloop that runs between LA and Las Vegas. They have been running that rout for years and they are getting 200 to 300 thousand miles with negligible battery degradation.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Maybe in 5-10 years.

I doubt it.

I'm not saying we should "abandon" EV's, but I do
think that battery technology has a way to go before
they will be comparable to the internal combustion
engine in terms of practicality and efficiency.

I couldn't care less if manufacturers expend private resources in making cars that run on daises if they feel its in their best interest to do so.

I do strongly object when forces outside the free market mechanism are used to pick winners and losers. That is what should be abandoned.

In another thread, much consternation was expressed about auto manufacturers allegedly being able to "dictate" what the consumer will buy (which they do not).  I find it astonishing the same outcry doesn't seem to occur when the same thing is done by "policymakers" - except that in the case of the latter, they have the ability to enforce it. 

[James Landi]

This article is recently published BY THE GENERAL  :  http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/02/electric-vehicles-see-41-percent-range-drop-in-frigid-cold-temps/

The "Gray Lady's" auto critic published this following his disastrous review with a Tesla some years ago.  https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/the-charges-are-flying-over-a-test-of-teslas-charging-network/

Happy day,   James

[gary griffin]

My daughter is a RN and her hospital has free charging stations so she purchased a used Leaf which had about a 100 mile range. About 5 years later the battery was failing and she was getting about 50 miles per charge. Her commute is about 12 miles each way. She paid $8,000 for it and sold it for $4,000 Pretty cheap transportation!  Battery technology is constantly improving!  She never had cold problems but Seattle climate is pretty moderate!

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

My daughter is a RN and her hospital has free charging stations so she purchased a used Leaf which had about a 100 mile range. About 5 years later the battery was failing and she was getting about 50 miles per charge. Her commute is about 12 miles each way. She paid $8,000 for it and sold it for $4,000 Pretty cheap transportation!  Battery technology is constantly improving!  She never had cold problems but Seattle climate is pretty moderate!

I'd love to know who gave her $4K for a car that needs a $5K repair that was only worth $8K 5 years ago.

[TJ Hopland]

I remember several years ago some politicians came to our area to visit some startup EV car company that I think was based in Fargo.  I don't think they were 'full size' cars but were fully electric.  They came up in February and were going to drive to Grand Forks which was a little under 100 miles.  Apparently in testing they made the trip several times but the day the politicians came it was darn cold and they only made it like 30 miles.  That story died quick, only locals knew about it.     

I can't find it again but recently saw a graph related to EV range and the range reduction was about the same at -20f as it was at 100f so its not just us northerners that have the issue.   What I don't see is how much of that reduction is simply related to battery temperatures vs interior climate control.  If you could not run any interior climate control how much could you get back?   Since both the heat and AC are drawing power I would imagine its a significant amount.

I would think while driving even in sub zero temps the batteries are generating heat.  Do any of the cars recycle that into the cabin?

From just a range standpoint I wonder how running the AC compares between a gas and electric car?  In a gas car we are taking most of the AC power from the engine so its a pretty small amount of the power the engine makes.   In an EV its direct from the battery.  I wonder how efficient that is.  I suppose it could be a thing where the gas engine isn't very efficient to begin with so the draw from the AC is less.

I have noticed that most of the electric cars try to rely heavily on seat heaters and coolers rather than trying to 'condition' the whole interior.     

[wrench]

I would think while driving even in sub zero temps the batteries are generating heat. 
   

Good point about climate control eating up electrical resources.

The one thing i would like to point out about sub zero is that, at say 60 miles an hour, the 'wind chill' effect would be a large factor in cooling the batteries below a useful temperature. So, Ironically, you would have to have battery heaters running off the batteries or maybe a small gasoline powered heater, doh!

You might even need some sort of variable position door setup to be full open on hot days and full closed on cold days...

You know? Back in olden times, the auto manufacturers endurance tested their cars in climate extremes. I am sure nowadays, they do computer simulations and call it good. "My iPad says we should be good to go!"

[TJ Hopland]

I didn't think of that windchill factor.  I wonder how much insulation is on the bottom of say a Tesla pack?   Insulation would be good for both extreme cold or hot but maybe hurts in moderate conditions?  Maybe they depend on getting some cooling from the air?   I assume they run the coolant from the inverters and motors into the battery if needed?  Things get complex pretty quick.  To bad they have to design them to run -20f to +120f.   If you could just say 60f +/- 5 it would likely be a lot easier.             

[R S Steven]

It takes about 7 KW to heat the interior and the A/C can use up to 7 hp to cool the interior.  That's a lot of energy to make people comfortable. Heck your hand held hair driers are around 1500 watts. How long does it take you to dry your hair?

Car companies have to produce vehicles that can keep the occupants warm when the ambient is -40F or less out or cool when it is 120F or more out. That's not an easy job to make people comfortable at those ambients. A parked car's head level (headliner) temperature will be 180+ F after an hour or two in the afternoon summer sun in Phoenix Az. It can be 200F under the IP if it is in direct sunlight.  There is a lot of thermal mass that has to be heated or cooled in a car. Heated and cooled seats, heated steering wheel etc. help make the occupants more comfortable because they are in direct contact with them. But they can't do the hole job.  Also some of the car companies Automatic Temperature Control systems (ATC, DEATC) in Hybrids/electric cars are set to underperform compared to their gas engine vehicles to improve battery range. Lots of game playing.

That's my two cents worth.

[cadillac ken]

Truth of the matter is that there were plenty of problems with the early internal combustion engines.  To constantly poo-poo the current EV cars and the related tech is probably done by the same folks mindset all those years ago when complaining that the internal combustion engine was too noisy, dripped oil everywhere ---and in fact some early engines simply had a drip oil system that allowed the spend "dripped" oil onto engine parts to fall onto the ground--- and were all too rough riding with little protection from the elements. Not to mention many a broken arms from kick back from a cranked start engine. 

But here we are with cars that have active suspensions, ABS, and are capable of cruising at 80mph that feels like 40mph.

You gotta start somewhere.

[TJ Hopland]

I think its the Volt I read about that only has heated seats and steering wheel when its in electric mode.  If you want to heat the cabin you have to run the gas engine.   I wonder if when you do that its using the coolant for heat?  Or is it just generating enough power to run an electric heater?

I have heard the same thing about the hybrids,  you only get the decent mileage if you are not running the heat or ac.  Darn wanting to be comfortable.  Maybe you can get a SpaceX Mars spacesuit as an option for your Tesla so you don't have to condition the whole cabin?

I wonder if you average out the whole USA how many days a year would it be reasonable to go with no climate control in the car?   I would think its not that many days so the climate control is a real issue.