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Left the 1996 Fleetwood sitting too long - won't stay running

Started by cadillacmike68, February 17, 2019, 03:59:08 PM

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cadillacmike68

OK, I left it sitting too long, probably 8 weeks. It cranks and tries to start but shuts off after 1-2 seconds.

I have it on a 15 amp charger to keep the battery from draining and only crank it for 4 seconds max. It will start after a couple seconds cranking, but will not stay running. Starting spray helps a bit (starts right away) but it still will not stay running.

Clogged fuel line or injectors?

Is there an easy way to clean the line and / or injectors without removing the entire top half of the engine??

I've only run Shell (top tier gas) in this car for a few years, but not the ethanol free Shell. I might start using that.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Dave Shepherd

Get a fuel pressure tester on it and see what you. have key on, key off. post back

TJ Hopland

Are you sure the battery is in good shape?  Was it below freezing during that 8 week period?  Just wondering if maybe the battery froze and is now causing electrical issues now.

Is the security light acting different than normal?  There were years that I think would stall for a security issue.

Fuel pressure is a good thought with a start but not stay running issue like this. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

savemy67

Hello Mike,

I have an LT-1 equipped Impala.  I believe this is the same engine as is in your '96 Fleetwood.  I had to replace the in-the-gas-tank fuel pump, and the fuel injector pressure regulator (at different times).

If you turn the key to the on position, you should be able to hear the in-tank fuel pump engage.  It may only engage for a couple of seconds and then shut off if the computer does not see the engine start.

As Dave suggested, a fuel pressure gauge will indicate whether there is sufficient fuel pressure to supply the injectors.  You can get a gauge at any auto parts store.  On my LT-1,  the test port is at the back of the fuel rail (awkwardly located near the firewall).  Turn the key to the on position, and the fuel pump should pressurize the fuel rail and injectors with 25 or more pounds of pressure.  Low pressure, or no pressure will probably keep the engine from starting.

Of course the problem may be something else, but if the engine fires immediately, using the starter fluid, I would suspect a fuel issue before suspecting an ignition issue.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

bcroe

Since it does start, probably is fuel. There could be a lack of cold
enrichment if the temp sensors have failed.  This is the sort of
thing causing me to recommend permanently installing a modern,
electric sender fuel pressure gauge.  This can quickly narrow down
the possibilities.  Bruce Roe

cadillacmike68

It only gets Florida cold here - below 60, but almost never below 40. It was almost 90 the past few days.

It was the spark plugs.

I had bought a set earlier but didn't put them in.

After finishing the lawn with the car on the charger, the battery showed full, so I tried again, this time no starting spray. It tried to start almost instantly, but again, wouldn't stay running. SO I thought, let's pull one plug. They need changing anyway.

Man was it fouled up.

More than 2 hours later after scratching the hell out of my arms, I got the drivers side bank changed, and had my wife start it. It started right up. So I had her shut it off and got 3 of the 4 on the passenger side changed. The 4th, #2 is Very hard to get to, its under the alternator, so that one will have to stay for tomorrow.

Again it started right up, but now I have the check engine lit.  Codes 122 and 130 on pointer # 1. Time to pull the service manual, but those are history codes, there were no current codes, but those might have been triggered earlier today. Code 126 on pointer # 2 was also lit. I think that is a Climate Control code, and it always shows as a history code, but that never lights the check engine light.

I'm going to get cleaned up and take it out for a 10 mile or so drive to warm it up - After putting some Shell Supreme in it.

Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

cadillacmike68

The plugs in it were ACDelco 41943, probably the original plugs.

The ones I have are 41902

RockAuto has 4 platinum plugs for this car:

ACDELCO 41942 Professional; Double Platinum Info
Commercial Chassis; Gap .050
   
   Part image   
   $4.74    
Add to Cart
ACDELCO 41902 Professional; Double Platinum Info
Gap .060
   
<
   Part image   
>
   $4.74    
Add to Cart
ACDELCO 41943 {#19244473} Professional; Double Platinum Info
FitsCommercial Chassis; Gap .050
OrGap .050; Original Equipment (Only 4 Remaining)
   
   Part image   
   $4.74    
Add to Cart
ACDELCO 41940 Professional; Double Platinum Info
Gap .050; Original Equipment

Every lookup shows the 41902s are good for the 1996 - perhaps a parts consolidation by GM?  Anyway, I'm not scratching the hell out of my arms again to change them out...
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

cadillacmike68

It ran a little rough and the check engine light is still solid on or flashing even after I cleared those 2 codes and disconnected the battery and touched the neg cable to the positive post. That's supposed to clear everything.

After about 20 miles it ran a little better, maybe its trying to adjust to the new clean plugs. Still not as smooth as before though.

I might have pulled a wire when I had the middle part of the air passage from the air cleaner to the throttle body off while I was trying to start it earlier. Its too dark to check now.

Or I might have dirtied up the Mass Air Flow sensor with starting spray. Or something else...

And there are probably dozens of codes that do NOT show up on the 1996's climate control diagnostic panel.

Who can recommend one of those OBD II scan tools that interfaces with a phone or computer??

That would be handy, because the Fleetwood's diag panel is really just an OBD I type of diagnostic aid. The instructions are almost identical to the ones ni the 1995 service manual and that was OBD I. The 1996 service manual does have all the bazillion codes in it, but how to dig them out??

And my arms are reminding me of a Ted Nugent song; Cat Scratch Fever.  >:D
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

bcroe

Quote from: cadillacmike68It only gets Florida cold here - below
60, but almost never below 40. It was almost 90 the past few days.

It was the spark plugs.

Man was it fouled up.   

Glad you found it, must have never been driven farther than the store. 
I have driven plugs past 100,000 miles with widening gaps, but not
fouled. 

I have experienced 0 deg F in northern FL.  Bruce Roe

cadillacmike68

#9
Bruce, I'm pretty sure these had the full 107,000 miles on them, i.e. never changed. The change interval was 100,000 mi.

I used to get around in this car a lot. I racked up 35,000 miles since Feb 2011 when I bought it. It Never failed to start.

The last several months I had not been driving it much - trying to not run up the miles, but from now on, it will be a 10-20 mile trip every 2-3 weeks just to keep it exercised.

Still looking for a recommendation on a good OBD II kit that connects to a phone or computer...

Now it's time for dinner, a superb rib eye steak and sauteed squash & asparagus.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

64\/54Cadillacking

Mike, when I had my 94 I remember what a PITA job it was to change out the plugs and wires. The original AC plugs were in their too, but instead of going with the same plugs, I went with NGK’s Platinums and the engine ran so much smoother where I could barely notice the idle.

NGK’s seem to work in everything, and because their plugs are still made in Japan, their quality of plugs is always top notch. Plus I like the V-Power tip design it gives for a better spark.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

cadillacmike68

Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on February 17, 2019, 09:32:28 PM
Mike, when I had my 94 I remember what a PITA job it was to change out the plugs and wires. The original AC plugs were in their too, but instead of going with the same plugs, I went with NGK’s Platinums and the engine ran so much smoother where I could barely notice the idle.

NGK’s seem to work in everything, and because their plugs are still made in Japan, their quality of plugs is always top notch. Plus I like the V-Power tip design it gives for a better spark.

GM Only for my cars. Unless it's not available. The 41-902 is a double platinum plug. This is not the first time I changed plugs in a Fleetwood. But it Always SUCKS.

Man that rib eye was GREAT. And it was only 5.50 per lb.  8)

there not their. Grammar police interruption.  :P
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

cadillacmike68

Even the 1968 is easier (except for # 7, Climate Control gets in the way).
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

64\/54Cadillacking

#13
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on February 17, 2019, 10:35:31 PM
GM Only for my cars. Unless it's not available. The 41-902 is a double platinum plug. This is not the first time I changed plugs in a Fleetwood. But it Always SUCKS.

Man that rib eye was GREAT. And it was only 5.50 per lb.  8)

there not their. Grammar police interruption.  :P

Hey now!! I’ve had a few drinks tonight lol.

A rib eye steak sounds so good, I just got back from Claim Jumpers with my GF, and I had the widow maker burger so I’m just as stuffed  ;D

Back to the main topic, I feel like certain  AC plugs aren’t made like they used to. And some part numbers, you’ll see that many now are made in China. Mexico and mostly China to be exact, but hardly U.S. anymore.

But hey if it works it works, and that’s all that matters.  8) ;)
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

cadillacmike68

Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on February 17, 2019, 11:35:48 PM
Hey now!! I’ve had a few drinks tonight lol.

A rib eye steak sounds so good, I just got back from Claim Jumpers with my GF, and I had the widow maker burger so I’m just as stuffed  ;D

Back to the main topic, I feel like certain  AC plugs aren’t made like they used to. And some part numbers, you’ll see that many now are made in China. Mexico and mostly China to be exact, but hardly U.S. anymore.

But hey if it works it works, and that’s all that matters.  8) ;)

Yeah, a lot of stuff isn't as good as it used to be, but I've never had problems with ACDelco plugs.

I had a few too!

OK back to business.

The 122 and 130 are CCM (pages 1C-12 and 8D-18 in the service manual) codes, NOT OBD II codes and they likely were tripped when I was feverishly twisting the key to try and get the car to start. They have not returned to the Climate Control diag display, but the check engine is still on. I'll have to take it to auto zone and have them read the codes for me, since I don't have an OBD II scan tool. I hope I didn't dirty up the MAF sensor.

Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

V63

Good to know about NGK plugs!

TJ Hopland

Ya that was a fun engine.  They yanked it right out of the Corvette and dropped it into these other cars.   Would have been nice if they undid some of the design features that were there just to fit under that sleek hood.

I seem to remember the 100k service on these engines was significant.  Back when I was buying them it seemed like most needed that service.  I think back when you were talking dealer parts it was over $1000 in parts.   Among the parts that needed to be done was the optispark distributor and the water pump.  Did they also want the injectors changed?  When I was looking it was a big deal because they were 10 year old cars that were only worth a couple thousand so needing a thousand in service was kinda a deal breaker.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Scot Minesinger

Mike,

That engine was designed to run on ethenal gas, that is not an issue.  You may want to change the in-line fuel filter between tank and engine.  Also, at 130k miles or so my 1995 RWD Fleetwood fuel pump failed, changing that may be a good idea.  Spark plugs were good to 100k miles, so good that you changed them.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

67Eldorado

I bought one of those blue tooth scan tools and it was worthless.
Jake

cadillacmike68

#19
I've been reading on the scan tools. It seems that Innova, Actron and Autel are the best. all US companies too.

Hey, auto zone and o'reiley's will scan for free and I can reset as needed.

There's a little dohickey on the curved elbow going into the throttle body, and I'm sure that got starting fluid sprayed on it. I tried cleaning it with MAF cleaner, and I cleaned the MAF as well, still got the light, so off to the parts store.

I changed the water pump a couple years ago. Not sure on the opti, but I think I changed all the wires.

Filter and pump, they usually give plenty of warning before failure. I've had a few GMs of this era. Sender would be replaced at the same time.

Injectors should not need replacing unless they are hopelessly FUBAR'd.


Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike