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1939 LaSalle 5019 Suspension/Steering Part II

Started by 39LaSalleDriver, February 21, 2019, 10:42:47 AM

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39LaSalleDriver

So after a valiant struggle I've finally got everything but the suspension arms and shocks removed. Those will follow soon. Good grief what a nasty job this has been.  :o Eighty years worth of grease, gunk, dirt, hair, you name it under there.

Contrary to my initial assessment, the king pins appear to be fine (will replace anyway), but the upright knuckle support (part #1429223) on the passenger side is hogged out where the king pin passes through. Ebay has come up dry thus far. Does anyone know the parts interchange on these other than what is in the MPL? For that matter, did Moog make any for the 39s? I have found them for 38s.


Also dissected the center/drag link. Fortunately, everything is in good shape EXCEPT one of the so called "covers" which is the thin little sheet metal cap which goes between the spacer and seat. Any ideas on where to source one of those or is it even critical? I really can't justify paying $100-200 for a drag link repair kit for essentially a bottle cap. For that matter, from what I can tell, those kits don't even have that part included.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

Tom Boehm

Hello Jon, What condition is the cap in? When I restored my steering tube, I took some caps from a parts car I had. Some of the originals were torn. I do remember carefully straightening some also.

39LaSalleDriver

One is in decent shape, the other is shot (see pic). I don't have a parts car available, so unless someone pops up they have a spare laying around I guess I'll have to figure out how to fabricate something. Admittedly, there's a part of me that wonders how critical this piece is. It has been in there damaged for who knows how long (I was very careful when removing the parts so it didn't happen during disassembly) and it worked that way. It's so thin that dimensionally I can't envision it would throw anything off by being missing. As far as I can tell it is only there to fit around the end of the triangular spacer where it butts up against one of the cup shaped pieces, but I have no concept of why it's even necessary.

As a side note, I found it interesting that the springs on the drivers side had been painted yellow (see pic). After soaking the parts in degreaser, most of the paint came off, but there's still a bit of a remnant in there.

Ultimately, this piece in the drag link is the least of my problems though. Unless I can track down a good upright knuckle support, I'm pretty much screwed. The only options I can see would be to live with it the way it is, never being able to align my wheels properly, and count on buying a new tire and bearings every year. Negating any advantage I may have gained by redoing the whole steering/suspension system. Or having a machine shop rig up a bushing somehow to take out the slop. Or even more unlikely, welding some new metal in there to be re-bored out correctly, but I don't know if it is cast steel or cast iron. Either way, that seems like a dangerous stretch to me. I'm not really wild about those two solutions, because if anything goes wrong, I'm completely out of business unless I go back to option one and find a new support which I would prefer to do in the first place.

I note that Rare Parts has this support available which "looks" like the correct support http://fcrcmachine.com/rare-parts-right-steering-knuckle-support-1939-1953-oldsmobile-1939-1948-pontiac-vehicles-15627/

And state that it fits the following vehicles:
1939-1953 Oldsmobile Vehicles
1939-1948 Pontiac Vehicles (See extended description below for full vehicle application information)


Unfortunately though, nobody has stepped forward to comment whether this part, or any other parts will interchange with a 39 LaSalle.

Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

Daryl Chesterman

I am working on a 59 Deville, and its centerlink/draglink is made the same way, with that phony tin cup around one end of the triangular spacers.  One of mine was in good condition also, but the other was bad, although, not as bad as yours.  I think the Cadillac/LaSalle engineers had a bad dream when they used them, as I see no useful purpose for them.  They are so thin that they can't be used for the purpose of keeping the triangular spacers centered in the tube.  I am thinking of using a 1" stainless steel fender washer in place of the tin cup.  Why, I don't know; I guess to just have something in there as a "wear" piece!

Have you contacted Rare Parts to see if the knuckle support they have, fits your application?  Would they allow you to return the knuckle support if it isn't the correct part?  I would not be afraid of taking the knuckle support to a machine shop and showing them the problem and see what they have to say.  You can always choose to not do anything.  It is most likely a forged or cast steel part, which can be built up in the wear area and machined down to the required specs.  The machine shop can tell if it is cast steel or cast iron or forged steel, and give you some ideas as to what they could do.

Daryl Chesterman

39LaSalleDriver

Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on February 22, 2019, 02:27:00 PM
I am working on a 59 Deville, and its centerlink/draglink is made the same way, with that phony tin cup around one end of the triangular spacers.  One of mine was in good condition also, but the other was bad, although, not as bad as yours.  I think the Cadillac/LaSalle engineers had a bad dream when they used them, as I see no useful purpose for them.  They are so thin that they can't be used for the purpose of keeping the triangular spacers centered in the tube.  I am thinking of using a 1" stainless steel fender washer in place of the tin cup.  Why, I don't know; I guess to just have something in there as a "wear" piece!

Have you contacted Rare Parts to see if the knuckle support they have, fits your application?  Would they allow you to return the knuckle support if it isn't the correct part?  I would not be afraid of taking the knuckle support to a machine shop and showing them the problem and see what they have to say.  You can always choose to not do anything.  It is most likely a forged or cast steel part, which can be built up in the wear area and machined down to the required specs.  The machine shop can tell if it is cast steel or cast iron or forged steel, and give you some ideas as to what they could do.

Daryl Chesterman

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this part serves no real critical purpose  :D  ....still, with my luck if I leave it out something is sure to go wrong. I may try that washer idea myself, or try to fab something out of sheet metal with tabs that fold over the spring. I thought about boring a hole in a board and trying to stamp something out, but that seems sure to go sideways.

I have not contacted RP yet. However, I have had a member reach out to me yesterday that he may have the knuckle supports and knuckles I'm looking for. Crossing my fingers he does and that they're usable. I'd much rather use good condition old parts than trying to have a machine shop fab something that may permanently mess up my existing parts. Plus, it helps out a fellow member here and keeps things "in the family" so to speak.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

Tom Boehm

The parts in question in the steering link tube are called "cover, steering connecting rod spacer" in the parts book. After studying the blowup picture, my best theory on what they do is to keep the grease where it needs to be. Without these parts the grease could ooze away from the ball and socket and into the triangular spacer, where it is useless. Like I said, it is only a theory.

Daryl Chesterman

#6
They really don't keep the grease in place in the ball sockets.  There is a hole in the middle of them that allows grease to pass through them.  By having their smooth back to one half of one of the sockets, and the cup part towards the triangular spacer, they really don't do anything except take up a very thin space (the thickness of the sheet metal).  Other than the initial lubrication(by the assembler), when the draglink is first assembled, I don't see how grease can get between the base of the tin cup and the socket half or between the end of the triangular spacer and the inside end of the tin cup.  It is no wonder that the tin cup wears out!!!  I still can't figure out why one seems to wear more than the other one.  Not a good design by Cadillac engineers.

Edit to note that the cups around the steering arm ball and idler arm ball have holes in them for the grease to pass through for lubrication around the ball, and these cup holes line up with the hole in the tin cups.

Daryl Chesterman

Tom Boehm

You disproved my theory, now I don't have one!  And your observation seems true that one cup gets worn out/destroyed and the other is OK.

39LaSalleDriver

I'm prone to agree with Daryl on this one. I had noticed that the specific design was such that all of the parts in the drag link have a central hole which presumably is to allow grease to pass through the entire length.

Wondering if the thin metal "cover" is to help guide the spacer into position at time of assembly? I would note also that my drivers side triangular spacer was not bent into a perfect triangular shape. Seems to be bent weirdly along the length of one of the planes. Absolutely no doubt that it was bent that way deliberately (or assembled in spite of) at the factory. Still fits and does it's job, but I thought it odd, and makes me wonder if we are all overthinking how critical precision is, or may be, in this particular application.

"I still can't figure out why one seems to wear more than the other one."

I take it then that you guys have experienced that the drivers side one gets worn out more than the one on the passenger side like mine did? Interesting...
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

Daryl Chesterman

Yes, Jon, it was my driver's side cup(cover) that was worn the most.  You can see in the picture I posted above, that the two triangular spacers' cross-sections are not the same.  One is crimped together more, at the apex of the triangle, than the other.  I doubt it is critical that they be the same; just odd that they aren't.  I have no idea whether my draglink has been apart prior to my disassembly, but it would be interesting to go back to when these cars were new, to be able to see what the new parts looked like.  We probably are overthinking how critical the precision of this assembly needs to be.  Mine steers smoothly, so no complaints there!

Daryl Chesterman

tripwire

Jon,
Last time I spoke with John Gately he told me he no longer had any Lasalles, his quote was, "I haven't had one of those for 20 years."
The only thing you can hope for with him is if he's got something squirreled away in his barn.  Who knows, maybe you'll get lucky.

Also, you give David Zitzmann a try. He's here on the forum, DaveZ. He had a, I think, a 39 he had parted out recently.
Driving now:
2013 CTS4 Performance Coupe
1940 LaSalle 5229 C4D

A few I used to drive:
1976 Cadillac Ambulance
1969 Cadillac Hearse, Superior Body
1966 Buick Wildcat Hearse
1957 Ford Thunderbird x 3, 1 E code, 2 D code
1956 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 Sedan
1949 Mercury Convertible
1949 Mercury Coupe, Mild Custom
1936 Buick Special Sedan

39LaSalleDriver

Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on February 25, 2019, 02:25:17 PM
Yes, Jon, it was my driver's side cup(cover) that was worn the most. 

Interesting...wonder what that means? See attached photo of my weirdly bent spacer.

Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on February 25, 2019, 02:25:17 PM
Mine steers smoothly, so no complaints there!

Daryl Chesterman

That's good news. I will probably try the washer fix myself.



Quote from: tripwire on February 26, 2019, 09:10:29 AM
Jon,
Last time I spoke with John Gately he told me he no longer had any Lasalles, his quote was, "I haven't had one of those for 20 years."
The only thing you can hope for with him is if he's got something squirreled away in his barn.  Who knows, maybe you'll get lucky.

Also, you give David Zitzmann a try. He's here on the forum, DaveZ. He had a, I think, a 39 he had parted out recently.

Thanks for the heads up and lead. Really hope I can get something tracked down soon. It is my hope to have car ready for a wedding in May, a show in June, and of course the GN in Louisville.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

39LaSalleDriver

Back to my issues with the steering knuckle supports though....

Things just keep getting worse the more I dig. I finally got one knuckle and support somewhat degreased to see what was going on yesterday. Looks like someone has been in there before and WELDED, yes WELDED the lower bushing into the support! No wonder I had a bear of a time getting this all disassembled!  >:( >:( >:(  I'm not sure what kind of idiot stunt that was unless the threads in the support were shot and they decided that rather than fixing it properly to weld the bushing in.  :-[ :-[  Attached is a photo of the passenger side support, and I have to presume the drivers side was done the same way (it's still degreasing).

So now I have to presume I need to replace both sides. Clearly the issues I'm now having, have been a problem for a loooonnnnggg time and nobody bothered to fix it right. I don't even want to contemplate what I'm going to have to do to get this mess straightened out if I can't find the correct knuckles and supports. See if I can get them for a 38 or 40 LaSalle and make it work? Modify something from a Buick? Reweld a bushing back in? All of those are less than appealing choices to me...
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

Paul Phillips

Jon
Sorry to hear about what you found on your car. To the best of my understanding, 39 and some 40 cars are the same. Mid 40, the knuckle & support were changed to allow a 15/16” kingpin instead of 7/8”. If you are changing both the support and knuckle, you should be able to go with the later.  In the Feb. Self Starter, there is a 40 LaSalle advertised as being parted out, so that could be a source. 

If you want to follow a slippery slope, you could swap for the 41-47 parts, and change the wheel bearing and hub too. That will give you a lot more sources.

I do not have access to my Hollander exchange manual to be sure of Olds & Pontiac exchange, but I would expect that Rare Parts could be a source.  Looks like the supports you need are RP #16149 (L) and 15769 (R).

Hope this helps,

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout

Brad Ipsen CLC #737

Best solution is someone parting a car and as Paul said you then can go on up in years if you get the whole assemble (knuckle and support) including the brake drum.  41 is the big change year with bigger bearings and more adjustment in the upper outer pin.  The 41 steering arm is longer so use your old steering arm but all of the rest fits fine.  All of the discussion on the steering connection link covers many years Cadillac and LaSalle.  Haven't researched all the interchange but I think it is all the same from 39 to 49.  In these years other than styling and a couple of things in the engine you were buying the mechanics of a Cadillac when you bought a LaSalle.  Thinking about it some more and the problems you have identified using the complete 41 setup would be the ideal solution.  Much greater chance of finding parts and you will have stronger suspension.   
Brad Ipsen
1940 Cadillac 60S
1938 Cadillac 9039
1940 Cadillac 6267
1940 LaSalle 5227
1949 Cadillac 6237X
1940 Cadillac 60S Limo

Steve Passmore

Just as a side note here, the Buick parts are different. There is a slightly different angle on the control arms so you would never be able to adjust your camber and the distance between kingpin bushes are different using a different sized bearing.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

harry s

There's an ad in the new SS parting out a '40 LaSalle 5019 in CT. Jack Murphy
860-543-2050.    Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

39LaSalleDriver

Quote from: Paul Phillips on February 26, 2019, 08:31:47 PM
Jon
Sorry to hear about what you found on your car. To the best of my understanding, 39 and some 40 cars are the same. Mid 40, the knuckle & support were changed to allow a 15/16” kingpin instead of 7/8”. If you are changing both the support and knuckle, you should be able to go with the later.  In the Feb. Self Starter, there is a 40 LaSalle advertised as being parted out, so that could be a source. 

If you want to follow a slippery slope, you could swap for the 41-47 parts, and change the wheel bearing and hub too. That will give you a lot more sources.

I do not have access to my Hollander exchange manual to be sure of Olds & Pontiac exchange, but I would expect that Rare Parts could be a source.  Looks like the supports you need are RP #16149 (L) and 15769 (R).

Hope this helps,

Paul

I knew about the changeover to a 15/16" kingpin after engine no. 2320953. Ideally, I would like to keep the car as original as possible for my own peace of mind as well as to keep everything "above board" for future owners. I'd hate to have a future owner trying to figure out that I put (for example) an 1948 Oldsmobile steering knuckle in a 1939 LaSalle. I'm already in, and have had a few of those "What the h...???" moments.  :) No sense in passing it on unless it's my last resort, even though later parts availability and reliability may be superior. Thanks to Brad and Paul for presenting me with options though...this car WILL drive again no matter what parts I have to put in it.

Before I get to all that stage of putting mismatched parts in my car; or having questionable machine work done on the parts I have though, I am following some leads I've turned up, including some that have been provided in this thread (thanks to Harry and Paul). I had missed the ad in the Self Starter so thanks for that...I have reached out to him as well now. Hopefully within the week I can get some stuff pinned down and get the ball rolling to putting the car back on the road. 

Quote from: Steve Passmore on February 27, 2019, 05:09:46 AM
Just as a side note here, the Buick parts are different. There is a slightly different angle on the control arms so you would never be able to adjust your camber and the distance between kingpin bushes are different using a different sized bearing.

Thanks Steve. The closest match I can identify visually, is from a 39-48 Pontiac/39-53 Oldsmobile. But without one in hand to compare with, I have no reason to believe it is a direct exchange (certainly nobody has stepped forward with information that it would). Before I get too carried away down that path though, I want to exhaust all other options on the table.


Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019