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Power brakes and steering

Started by jsgomes1950, March 11, 2019, 04:08:37 PM

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jsgomes1950

Hello all.My name is John.I was a member a while back.  I came back because of the wealth of knowledge here on this forum. I have a 1940 LaSalle model #5019 four door sedan.Some of you may remember me as I call her Sally.I looking for any and all information you all might have on installing power brakes and steering on one of these cars.While she drives like a dream out on the open road,at low speed around town, parking, etc., She can be a handful. I have had both of my knees replaced,both of my hips replaced ,and my left shoulder, so it's hard for me to wrestle her around town. Any information on these two subjects would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
JSGomes

35-709

#1
Believe you can go with the "power piston" type of power steering assist like Corvette used and I think earlier ('50s/'60s) Fords.  That could be adapted into your current front end steering.  Never done it but I have seen it in a '41 Cadillac and a post-war Cadillac at the Boston GN.  Biggest problem then would be making the brackets to mount the PS pump and coming up with a belt drive for it.
Below are pics of the '41 Cadillac I saw with Power Steering (and AC) on a stock engine.  This car is in southern Florida.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

jsgomes1950

Thank you so much for your input\pictures. I will check out the corvette parts you mention and see if they would work in my situation. By the way, I remember you from when I was a member before. You helped me with questions I had about converting to a modern od automatic transmission. It's people like you that make belonging to this club worthwhile. And also by he way......Big Red is gorgeous!
JSGomes

Caddy Wizard

Two  things to think about before you switch to power steering and power brakes.  First of all, for power steering, have you tried using the skinny radial tires that look like bias ply tires and inflating them to mid-30s psi?  That makes these cars steer so much easier, especially in parking and low-speed situations.  I have done this before with a manual steering car (1950 Cad) and the results were hard to believe unless you tried it yourself.  A nice thing about this is that it is an easy change and if the change is not enough for you, you can still add power steering.  In my estimation, this is about like having 1/2 power steering.


As for brakes, another option is a dual circuit master cylinder for safety (redundancy in case of a line, cylinder or other failure).  I sell a mounting kit that allows you to mount a modern dual circuit (but not power boosted) master in the original spot, using the existing brake line, your drums, shoes, etc.  My kit runs $270 and the master is about $160 from commercial sources.  I have sold about 70 of these kits and the feedback has been enthusiastic. 
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

35-709

Quote from: jsgomes1950 on March 12, 2019, 02:29:04 PM
Thank you so much for your input\pictures. I will check out the corvette parts you mention and see if they would work in my situation. By the way, I remember you from when I was a member before. You helped me with questions I had about converting to a modern od automatic transmission. It's people like you that make belonging to this club worthwhile. And also by he way......Big Red is gorgeous!
That is very nice of you, John, thank you. 
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

jsgomes1950

Thank you Mr. Gardner for your input/suggestions on my issues. The tire suggestion is brilliant. I`ll probably try that before tearing the car all apart to put in power steering. as for the brakes, does your system make a difference in the braking power? or is primarily a safety fix? Also, would i need to install a proportioning valve to adjust how much pressure goes to the front and rear Brakes?
JSGomes

Caddy Wizard

#6
Quote from: jsgomes1950 on March 13, 2019, 01:43:41 PM
Thank you Mr. Gardner for your input/suggestions on my issues. The tire suggestion is brilliant. I`ll probably try that before tearing the car all apart to put in power steering. as for the brakes, does your system make a difference in the braking power? or is primarily a safety fix? Also, would i need to install a proportioning valve to adjust how much pressure goes to the front and rear Brakes?


I think you will be pleased with the improvement from the tires.  Diamondback and Coker both sell a version of this type of tire.

Regarding my brake kit, it doesn't add power assist.  In fact, because it uses the stock brake pedal arm, it generates the same mechanical advantage as the stock brakes (which is about 10:1, as I recall -- meaning that if you push on the pedal with about 100 pounds of force it puts about 1,000 pounds of force on the brake push rod due to the long lever arm of the brake arm).  My dual master solution really addresses a safety issue (redundancy), not convenience of power assist.  It doesn't need a proportioning valve, as the master that works with my kit comes pre-valved for drum brakes all around. 

I find that to get maximum stopping power for a given amount of foot force in an old drum brake car, three things make a big difference.  One, the imported brake shoes you see for sale on ebay are usually semi-metallic linings and have very good friction (stopping power).  Two, be sure to get the shoes arc'ed to your drums -- not many places still do this, but it is a huge help.  Places that re-line brakes for big trucks can probably still do it.  Three, be sure to do the "major" brake adjustment as detailed in the shop manual (which centers the shoes in the drum so that the entire shoe is engaging the drum, not just one end or the other).  This also makes a big difference.  Do those three things and you might find that you don't really need power brakes!  I have done those three things to old Cad's that you had to just about stand on the pedal to stop the car and found big improvements.  I would suggest that you do those things now -- before trying power brakes or upgrading to a dual master using my kit.  Those should greatly improve how much braking you get for a given amount of force.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

jsgomes1950

Once again Mr. Gardner thank you so much for your feedback. I think I'll take your suggestions and try those items first before I get to crazy. I really don't want to take the car apart this close to driving season, so simple fixes are better. Thanks again.
JSGomes

Caddieman53

I agree with Art on not really needing power brakes. My 53 will stop on a dime without the need to apply a lot of pedal pressure. The 12" drums all around gets the job done easily. Of course, proper adjustment is most important.
P. W. Allen

53 Cadillac Coupe 6237X
Twin Turbine

GBrown #8092

Let me echo the suggestions made about changing to radial tires.
While i do not own a LaSalle, ...yet, I have accumulated about 13000 miles traveling back and forth to Club GNs with about 25% of that time as the driver of a 1940 5019.  I don't think its possible to overestimate the difference that having radial tires on the car. I would definitely try that first.

My $.02.

Glenn Brown

Jay Friedman

If you want to do a "major" brake adjustment on your '50 as Art Gardner mentioned, I suggest you first read the brake adjustment section in th 1950 shop manual which should describe this in detail.  This type of adjustment, as Art wrote, involves centering "the shoes in the drum" by adjusting the eccentric pin/bolt against which the upper part of the shoes are held.  To do so, using a feeler gauge, you must remove each wheel and measure the lining to drum clearance through a slit-like hole in the perimeter of the brake drum. 

Art and I have written a detailed illustrated article describing how this procedure is done on a '49, whose brakes are similar to a '50's.  We felt the need to do so because the '49 shop manual's description of the procedure is unclear in places.  If you send me an email at jaysfriedman@yahoo.com, I'll reply with a copy of the article.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

jsgomes1950

Caddieman, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Friedman, thank you all for input. I'm, well, overwhelmed at the outpouring of help and information that everyone in this club gives of themselves. I'm so glad I joined.
Mr. Friedman, my email is as follows, jsgomes1950email addresses not permitted
Thank you all again for your input, and thank you Mr. Friedman for us information you are sending me.
JSGomes