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Timing mark question.....

Started by Biskit66, April 04, 2019, 08:09:40 AM

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Biskit66

Hello!
   First post! Also want to say the wealth of knowledge I've been able to access here is awesome! I'm truly grateful, and this forum appears to be compiled of great people!
   Anyway, I'm the proud owner of a 66 DeVille Convertible that I bought about a month ago. She needs lots of love, but it's a solid car, and my family is looking forward to many smiles and miles with her!
   To my question... somewhere along the line, she received a 472 transplant. From the block and head casting numbers I've concluded it's a 68-69. I don't know the engines history or miles but overall I think it has a good amount of life left before requiring a rebuild. However it's got some issues with ignition, carburetor, and a pretty good "lifter tick". Currently working on the ignition, as it was the most pressing. Lots of nasty pinging when under a heavy load.
   I picked up a nice HEI distributor, plugs for a 76 500, gapped @ .060, and 8mm wires. Installed. HUGE IMPROVEMENT! But the problem is, I have no idea where I am for base timing. The marks on my timing tab are history. However, it has 3 notches. Does anyone know what degree of timing they represent? From left to right as you look from the front? Right now I have it set between the 1st and 2nd notch from the left, with no mechanical or vacuum advance. Runs pretty good with no more pinging. But I'd like to take full advantage of this upgrade and some numbers would truly help... lol. Then I can start tweaking the carb.
    As for the valvetrain, it seems to be quieting down as I drive it which is good, but one tick is still a bit much for me. I am ordering one of the blueprinted oil pumps from cad500, as I think I may currently have one of the problematic Melling replacement pumps. The entire engine is painted blue with exception to that and the water pump. I also think the oil pressure may be on the weak end, but my current gauge is unreliable. Definitely getting oil up top, but it's not squirting as much as I think it should compared to other engines I've experienced.
   Any thoughts or comments are greatly appreciated!

Cheers!
Aaron
   
A. Sibilsky

TJ Hopland

If its a 68 or 69 engine and original or built more or less to original specs it should be high compression and require premium fuel.   Over the years there were different crank pulleys and matching timing tabs so its possible that you have a miss match since they will all bolt on any of this engine family. 

If you really want to know the timing the only way to know for sure with an assembled engine is a piston stop.   They are available from all the usual places.  Its basically a spark plug body with a bolt in it.  You remove the #1 (or #4 on these engines) and turn the engine by hand the clockwise and eyeball that the piston is close to all the way up but still moving up.  Install the stop and turn the screw in till it hits the piston then back it off a few turns.   Now turn the engine clockwise till it hits the stop.   Find a reference like the timing tab and make a mark on the pulley.  Now turn the engine counter clockwise till you hit the stop again.   Make another mark.   TDC will be the center between the 2 marks.   Remove the stop and put the plug back and you are done and know when you are on your new mark and that specific part of the gauge you will be at TDC.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Biskit66

Thanks TJ!
     I didn't think of doing it that way.
According to the casting numbers, it's definitely a 68 or 9. I don't think it's rebuilt, and the previous owner didn't have any history on the car. He got it at an estate auction, got it running and driving, had some fun, and sold to me. It looks to me like it's not rebuilt. I think they just cleaned it up, replaced the gaskets, gave it some fresh paint, and dropped it in this car. The timing tab and balancer look original to me. Assuming I'm correct, do you know what the 3 notches on the tab represent?
     Also, 10-4 on the Premium. The best we can get here in WI is 91octane ethanol free. I run that in everything that isn't driven or used daily. Do you suggest a lead substitute as well? The information if gathered thus far points both ways.

Thanks again!
Aaron
A. Sibilsky

Scot Minesinger

Vacuum leaks also cause pinging, make sure they are all sealed up.  Vacuum hoses that look OK might not be, so replace one at a time if in doubt.  Probably best to find out if you have a 1968 or 1969 engine and buy that factory shop manual.  Easiest way to tell probably is fuel pump/filter.  The fuel pump on a 1969 should be same as 1970 with filter on the pump where supply leaves pump and goes to carb.  If you see an inline fuel filter between pump and carb it is probably a 1968 engine.  Then you can get correct vacuum piping (often tis is plumbed wrong in a transplant. 

Another source of vacuum leaks is the devices themselves, vacuum break on carb, choke pull off, distributor vacuum advance, climate control, brake booster, storage tanks, cruise, and etc.  Get a vacuum pump and test them all.  Another source of leaks is a bad seal job on intake manifold at corners.

If it is a 1968 or 69 it will be equipped with a smog pump and that should be removed, which requires a set of 1970 pulleys or the kit from MTS in CA.  1970 was the only year a 472 engine did not get a smog pump (1968-1974 the 472 was used). 

And, the timing chain if original should be changed, as the cam sprocket will be aluminum with a nylon coating - this could be a possible source of ticking? 

The 472 is a wonderful engine, so enjoy it!  I have three 1970 Cadillacs with the 472 and they are awesome.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Scot Minesinger

the three notches represent like 0, 5 and 10 degrees, something like that.  Best way to find out is if it is a 1968 or 69, as the marks differ.  These should be good.  The hub is keyed and the pulley only goes on one way, so it is not easy to make these marks wrong by a mis-install, but anything is possible.  The 1968 had something like a 5' timing and the 1970 is about 7.5, so 1969 is probably same as 1970 - not sure.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Biskit66

Thanks Scot!
Yep. I addressed all vacuum issues beforehand. No smog pump on it either. Which brings another question. Did the air pump push air into the exhaust manifolds? Mine don't have any ports for that. I guess it will be best to find TDC manually and make my own marks, especially since I don't know what parts are from what. My fuel pump does not have the filter, but it's not the original pump either. Timing chain is on the list. Just shooting for drivable this season, and if I have bigger issues, I'll pull the engine next time the snow flies. It's running nice now, but I'm hoping to make the tick go away...

Cheers,
Aaron
A. Sibilsky

hornetball

You might take a peek over here as I am addressing similar "lifter tick" issues on a '74 500.

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=154660.0

You definitely need to be sure about the cam gear.  It's a time bomb if original.

Driver's side exhaust manifolds with heat stoves frequently crack (mine was cracked).  New replacements are available from Rock Auto.

Scot Minesinger

The smog pump discharged into heads, there should about a "penny" size plug on front of both.  If not they need to be plugged and MTS sells them for super low cost.

For the ticking on valve train, remove the valve covers and take a look around, snap some pics, we may be able to tell if you have bad rocker arm pedestals, inferior rocker arms (reproductions are terrible (soft metal all cast no machining) - get good used from MTS).  Usually the cause of the problem can be narrowed down or identified looking under valve covers.

Attached is a picture of why my 472 made a tick noise the intake valve stem wore thru the rocker arm (probably bad valve job, stem not ground down) a year earlier.  The rocker arm compressed at the spring instead of on stem and so the good thing I got to it when I did.  Also attached is a nylon coated aluminum cam sprocket from a 35k mile 472 engine, not to bad, but I have seen them with no nylon and ready to let go and the 472 is an interference valve/piston engine.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Biskit66

Thanks again for the replies!
I have 66 and 69 service manuals on the way....
   I'll be ordering a new timing chain set with the oil pump. Need it or not, I'd rather have confidence. I work 60+ hours a week, so my play time is really limited. Hoping to get a bunch done this weekend, but the lovely lady will not be too happy if I don't start cleaning up and fixing winter damage around the fort!
    I had the valve covers off last weekend and didn't see any obvious signs of wear, however, some rockers had a bit more side to side play than others. None of them are worn through like hometballs were. But I obviously may need to look deeper. I was happy to see things relatively normal and no nasty sludge anywhere. Again, thanks for the warnings and info...
   The only place I can see for smog ports in the heads appear to be plugged. I'll include a pic.
   I'll also inspect the manifolds closer, but almost positive it's not a cracked one or gasket leak. I'll be down there replacing motor mounts and rerouting some wiring and pluming I don't like anyway.
   BTW Hornetball, I love the story! The smile on your wife's face brought a tear to my eye! Your a good man! I'll be marrying the love of my life in the Smokey Mountains this September, and my goal is to take this car. I'm a long way off but the experience and wisdom here goes a long way.

Thanks everyone!
Aaron
   
A. Sibilsky

Scot Minesinger

Those plugs almost look factory, maybe you have a 1970 engine.  The ps and ac should be dual belts, looks like you are missing one from drive belt pulley where timing marks are.

Yes, I get it, still working long hours too - tough to get the time to fix things.

Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

Look in the post referenced above for the tick. On there I explained a bit about how the rockers can be loose on the pedestals causing the tick. As for the oil pressure, j had an issue with that too. I had a cheapie Harbor Freight gauge set that I temporarily plumbed in to check the pressure. If you start it with the valve covers off you will know if you have pressure. If you do take a gloved hand and press on the rockers to keep them from wobbling around to see if your tick goes away.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille