News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

New Here looking for trans help on a 58 Deville

Started by GMan58MadCaddy, April 15, 2019, 12:38:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GMan58MadCaddy

Hello all!  I just joined as I was pointed here from another GM forum. 

I recently acquired a 58 Deville and am trying to get it running and driving. It last ran about 4 years ago and was an Art car owned by the Houston Zoo and a Colorado art museum. This car definitely has some twerks, left hand Lugs, pvc pipe for a vent blower, (obviously not original), and what they did to the body is just disgusting). Still a neat car and 90% complete.  Ill figure out how to add some pictures later but need some help getting the old girl back on the road.

I installed a new carburetor and changed the oil, got the engine running smooth but get nothing out of the transmission, seems stuck in Park. The rear brakes are also locked up from rust. I have not pulled the trans pan yet, as I can barely get under the car even with it on ramps and jack stands. The shift linkage is all there and there is no excessive play. There is also a kickdown linkage from the carburetor, and that looks ok.

I have never messed with a transmission and don't know what I am looking for other than obvious broken parts. Anyone have experience with an older 3 speed auto trans? What should I look for/at?

Also any tips on removing the rear drums when the brakes are rusted?

Thanks in advance! GMan
58 Cadillac Deville four door former Art Car -  trying to get it back on the road.

savemy67

Hello GMan,

You may want to verify the level of the fluid in the transmission.  Even if he car has sat for a while, if the transmission is mostly full, you should be able to tell that the transmission is shifting from drive to reverse regardless of whether the rear brakes are frozen.

I would try to get the rear brakes free before trying anything with the transmission.  Do you have a Cadillac shop manual for your model year?  If not, it is a very worthwhile expense.  Your rear wheels may be frozen due to any number of things - inside of the drum rusted to the axle flange, brake shoes expanded against the drum, parking brake not released, brake fluid pressure not released, etc.  Put the rear axle safely on jack stands, and do some exploration.

FYI, the transmission for 1958 would have been a 4-speed Hydra-Matic.  This transmission used a fluid coupling instead of a torque converter.  If all the fluid leaked out of the fluid coupling, it might be possible that the transmission would give no indication that it was trying to engage as the transmission might be empty.  This is unusual, which is why I suggest that you first check the fluid level in the transmission.  Good luck.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter

Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

35-709

For 1958 you will need the 1957 Cadillac Shop Manual as well as the 1958 Supplement --- and here is the deal of the day on eBay right now ---

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-CADILLAC-ALL-MODELS-Repair-Shop-Workshop-Service-Manual-Set-W-Supplement/352601399580?hash=item5218ae611c:g:5FkAAOSwRIhccKbX

If I were looking for these 2 manuals, I would be all over this deal!   

1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Roger Zimmermann

The offered '57 manual is an original one, the '58 supplement is a copy. Anyway, useful!
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

GMan58MadCaddy

Thanks guys, I figured I was at the right place after looking around the site.  Just ordered that shop manual.

I have checked the trans fluid and it looks to have plenty, with engine running and car in park, level does not change if shifter moved to Neutral. 

I have the rear on jack stands and the front on ramps, but I can still barely fit under the car it sits so low.  From under the car I can rotate the transmission output shaft at the U-Joint a small amount, normal amount for a car in park.  When I say I get nothing from the trans I mean, no clunk or shift noise coming from the underside of the car. 

For the breaks: I have the driver side rear wheel off (cost me a cracked socket and broken ratchet, before I figured out the left hand threads ::)).  This car sat through 6 inches or so of storm water during Hurricane Harvey, which is why the Houston Zoo got rid of it.  I am guessing the brake pads are rusted to the drums, so I have sprayed into the drum where I can with some PB blaster. Gotta get it apart to know what needs to be replaced. 

When I first picked up the car only the rear drivers side was locked up but I was able to free it by dropping the edge of the tire on a block to get the torque. Now that it sat in my garage for about a year both rear wheels are locked up.  Im hoping I didn't damage the transmission getting it onto the trailer and then into my garage.  It was very hard to roll, but once she started she didn't want to stop.

Any further tips on the trans, or how to get the rear drums off?

Thanks, ~G
58 Cadillac Deville four door former Art Car -  trying to get it back on the road.

fishnjim

It might have been turned into art, because it wasn't road worthy...   B careful!

All that stuff is in the manual(s), but you didn't specify if the linkage was froze - when U say "stuck in Park".   Or U put in R or D and car just didn't "move"?   How did you get it to where it is?   rolls or not?   I'm puzzled because, if the rear wheels are "froze", the trans probably won't turn them either.  Nor will it won't roll.

These trans are a pain, if they don't run, but can still get parts and people to fix.   But it's not easy to drop out, just the trans, without pulling the motor and trans together.  {with lots of disassembly.}  The 6 bolts are too close to the floor pan to get in there and there's no access panel under the rug.   
You have to feed trans fluid to the "torus" to get it filled from the tube.   There's a procedure in the manual.   (~800 rpm, if I recall)   There are spare trans around.
   
Drums; I've had them off, but it's been a while.  [There might be jack bolts* that hold rears on.]   So check the manual.   I converted to all right hand lugs when I went through the brakes.   The tire jockeys don't understand "L" or using a impact in reverse.  Mine were all stripped or snapped.   Easy to change, if you have a press, or take to a machine shop.   
I don't recommend heat for removing the drums.(seal damage).   If they truly are froze, you'll probably have to screw the adjuster in to release the linings, soak the hub, and tap on the rear drums to get them off the axles (*bolts).   Disconnect the brake lines at the rear wheel cylinders and see if they're froze or not and to release any pressure.   You might just find "dust" in there from the sound of things and rusted cylinders.   They are available.   Check that the E-brake isn't stuck too.   Cable might be froze on.   (But again I doubt it, how did you move it? - it must roll?)

The fronts drums are "one" piece with the hub, so they're even more of a challenge, if stuck.  You have to press out those front hubs to change drums.   Unfortunately, the front drivers "L" axle nut can't be changed without replacing with another spindle.   So make sure you take off correctly.   They're a weird thread size that's no longer made also.   I was able to get a thread chaser/die.   Had to hunt for a driver side nut, they turned those the wrong way too, and cut it off with a nut cracker and then put back on(???).   I almost fainted and glad I didn't drive much.   So be careful.   
Check everything before you attempt to drive or put on the road.   Those brake boosters are notorious on this year.  Even if it appears to work, it may fail after one or more activations.   I replaced mine with a modern dual system.

GMan58MadCaddy

Jim, and all:

The shift lever moves and the linkage to the transmission all move, and seem to have very little play. but I don't think there is any movement inside the transmission, if that makes sense.  Almost like the rod (from shifter linkage) that goes into the transmission is broken, or no longer attached inside the transmission housing.

I was able to get the car to roll onto a trailer and then into my garage, but it did not move without a winch, at least to start momentum.  After sitting in my garage for a year as I have little time to work on it with two small kids, now both rear brakes are locked up.  I still have a small amount of play in the driveshaft, whether the Shift lever is in Park or neutral, I can only turn the driveshaft a small amount.  The parking brake cable is loose now, but was stuck when I first got the car.  The front wheels turn freely.

There are two bolts that go into the drums, kinda offset from the lugs.  The bolts were both screwed completely in, but came out easy.  Are these to be removed for jack bolts?

As for safety, I plan to go through the front brakes as well, and maybe do a disk brake swap as there seems to be kits for not too much money. Ill also thoroughly check if not rebuild/replace the booster.  I'm trying to not spend too much, but the wife understands the need for brakes so I will replace what is needed.

I'm sure the shop manual will answer a lot of my questions, and I appreciate y'alls help.
58 Cadillac Deville four door former Art Car -  trying to get it back on the road.

fishnjim

You report no trans noises; grinding or gnashing, while running, so that's good news.   

Definitely need to check the fluid levels.   I'd say it's about normal for a car sitting that long.   Seems like the less they get used, the more they don't do what their supposed to.
I'll think about if there's any way to test the trans without removal but your priority is to fix the rears and brakes first anyway.   But I'd guess, if the gear shift shaft is broke, it'd probably fall out of the trans and leak a lot.   So somethings moving and something else is not inside.   Probably a clue for an art car.
Probably not one to be diagnosed across the forum, I fear. 
If you would post a pix, curiosity is eating me.

Glen

Drop the pan on the transmission and check the linkage inside.  From your description it is possible the linkage is disconnected. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104