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1977 Cadillac Seville, Help needed

Started by bwxcadillac, April 21, 2019, 04:41:23 AM

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bwxcadillac

Hi Guys

I've just purchased a 77 Seville which has been off the road for quite a while.

Unfortunately the drivebelts have rotted and fallen off! :( :(

Does anyone have a routing diagram for the belts and any idea of where i can get them

More importantly the routing really has me stumped :-\

I've searched everywhere but no luck at all.

Any help would be very much appreciated

TJ Hopland

I don't currently have and Olds equipped car so I can't post a photo.  Its in the factory service manual but I'm not sure where mine is at the moment so I can't post copy of that diagram.   

I and pretty much everyone here would highly recommend picking up a factory service manual and most of us would say try and find an original copy not a reprint or CD.  There are apparently decent quality CD's and reprints but there seems to be a lot more poor quality ones than good ones.   As usual there are several on Ebay right now to choose from.   I see one for $5 +shipping and several in the $30 range with free shipping as well as a few that come bundled with the fuel injection manual or the Fisher body manual.    The factory shop manual for 77 cover is mostly white with a light blue border and rounded corners.   

If you can get some of the cheap ones maybe pick up 2 copies.   Keep the rougher one with the car for service people and greasy fingerprints and keep a nice clean copy for in the house.    And by cheap ones I'm still talking about the factory manual not one of the super duper Cadillac repair manuals that fits all makes and models from 1960-1990.   I find those manuals a lot more frustrating than useful. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Roger Zimmermann

#2
I was sure that I posted the diagram yesterday. Gone? Your car is a K body, first diagram on top of page.
Did you look into the technical section? You asked the same and I responded there.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

The Tassie Devil(le)

Roger you did, and it is still there, but in the Technical Section.

Or, it was there till I removed it as we don't allow the same questions in different Forums.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

bwxcadillac

First off, a very big thank you to both of you for your help. In particular to Roger who took the time to post a copy of diagram i was after and you were spot on, it was the top diagram i needed.

Its solved a big mystery for me and i've now ordered the correct belts for the car here in the UK :)

I've only just bought the car, i've always wanted a Cadillac and this one caught my eye because its right hand drive!!

It needs alot of work which i don't mind at all.

Once the belts arrive i'll fit them and get the car started for the first time and hopefully all is good mechanically

I'll keep you posted and thanks again for your help


bcroe

Quote from: bwxcadillacI've just purchased a 77 Seville which
has been off the road for quite a while.   

Bringing it back, check a few essential things.  Be sure an all metal
timing chain set has been installed to replace the factory plastic. 
Check or replace all hoses, esp the ones carrying high pressure fuel
from the tank to the injectors.  Tires and brakes would (and do) get
complete overhaul/replacement here. 

Check that the pair of 2 wire EFI temp sensors have not failed open
circuit, should measure around 1000 ohms cold. 
good luck, Bruce Roe

bwxcadillac

#6
Thanks for that Bruce  :)

I now have the v belts on, the car starts from cold but is running very very rich to the point where its floods and cuts out.

I can restart it but i then have to give it almost full throttle/gas to get it running again with clouds and clouds of of dark gray smoke until it just dies again, the more you rev it up once its running the more thick gray smoke, smells very very petrol/rich and runs rough with it too

I've checked the EFI sensors, one at the front and at the back and they measure approx 960 ohms

I've put a vacuum gauge on the vacuum pipe to the MAP sensor and the pipe is good

All other vacuum pipes are good

The spark plugs are sooty/black in colour

I've checked the timing with a strobe gun and its pretty much spot on

I've had the fast idle valve out and cleaned it but its made no difference and i don't really know how to check any further

i'm also getting a good return of fuel to the tank so i'm assuming the fuel pressure regulator is working?

Any help would be very much appreciated






bcroe

I am betting your ECU is keeping the injectors open all the time,
one bank or the other.  The usual cause, IC2 (LM2900), IC3 (LM239),
or IC4 (LM224) have failed.  Swapping a different 76-77 Seville ECU
would verify the problem location.  I am going to send my 70s Cad ECU
application list for everyones info, another post. 

These are very cheap parts, at your location a competent electronics
guy could just replace them and see if it works.  I could easily take care
of these or other things and completely test the ECU, but it would need
to cross the pond and go thru customs a couple of times. 

See info on 70s Cad EFI on the first album of my PHOTOBUCKET, the
second album is the internal circuit of your ECU. 

     http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/L71/bcroe/

  click on an Album
  click on a picture to enlarge + description

BRUCE ROE                                  bcroe@juno.com
5719 EAST SKINNER ROAD,
STILLMAN VLY, IL    61084-9215

Phone  815 234-8039

bcroe

76-80 Cadillac Bendix ECUs  from Bruce Roe

Here is my list of early ECUs with application.  I
believe some more late models may exist which
came out after my source of info. 

Additions or corrections, let me know.  Bruce Roe

Closed loop use an OX sensor. 
E = Eldorado
K = Seville
C = full size rear wheel drive
Fed = 49 state application
Cal = California application
All = 50 state application
500 = 76 Cad engine
425 = 77-79 Cad engine
350 = 76-80 Olds engine
Orig = original part
remf = remanufactured or replacement part

Bendix #       car                    desc
160 7250  76 K Fed       orig 350
160 8339  76 E Fed       orig 500
160 8340  76 E Cal        orig 500
160 8341  76 K Cal        orig 350
160 8820  75/6 C Fed     remf 500
160 8822  75/6 C Cal/E Fed     remf 500
160 8823  75/6 E Cal      remf 500
160 8824  76 K Fed       remf 350
160 8825  76 K Cal        remf 350
160 8868  76 C Fed       orig 500
161 0814  77 K Fed       orig 350
161 0815  77 K Cal        orig 350
161 0826  77 K Fed       remf 350
161 0827  77 K Cal        remf 350
161 1163  76 E/C Fed    orig 500
161 1188  77 C Cal        orig 425
161 1189  77 C Fed       orig 425
161 1190  77 E Cal         orig 425
161 1191  77 E Fed        orig 425
161 1491  76 E/C Fed    remf 500
161 1875  77 C Fed        remf 425
161 1876  77 E Fed        remf 425
161 1877  77 E Cal         remf 425
161 1878  77 C Cal        remf 425
161 2079  77 E Alt          orig 425
161 2154  77 E Alt          remf 425
161 2305  78 K Alt          orig 350
161 2947  78 C Cal        orig 425
161 2949  78 K Fed       orig 350
161 2950  78 C Fed       orig 425
161 2953  78 K Cal        orig 350 open loop
161 4446  78 K Fed       remf 350
161 4447  78 K Alt          remf 350
161 4448  78 K Cal        remf 350
161 4449  78 C Fed       remf 425
161 4450  78 C Cal/79 C All    remf 425
161 5137  79 E Fed       orig 350 open loop
161 5139  79 E Cal        orig 350 open loop
161 5173  79 K Fed       orig 350 open loop
161 5882  78 C Fed       orig 425
161 5883  79 K Cal        orig 350 closed loop
161 6206  79 E Fed        remf 350
161 6207  79 E All          remf 350 open loop
161 6208  79 K Fed       remf 350
161 6209  79 K Cal        remf 350 closed loop
161 6210  78 C Fed       remf 425 After Vin 223335, must use with blue (500) injectors. 
161 8498  79 E Fed       orig 350
161 8810  79 E Fed       remf 350
161 9550  80 K/E Cal    orig 350 closed loop
161 9551  80 K/E Cal    remf 350                                                         


7 Nov 03, 20 Dec 10, 25 Nov 2012

Matt CLC#18621

Please post a picture of your right hand Seville.
thanks,
matt

bwxcadillac

Thanks for your time and input Bruce, you're obviously very knowledgable with these old Bendix systems

Armed with what you have suggested out of curiosity i put a volt meter across 2 terminals of an injector and cranked the engine over, the voltage systematically fluctuated from anywhere between 2 - 9.5 volts.

With the ignition on and moving the throttle linkage i can hear and feel by touch all of the injectors clicking open and closed

Is any of the above normal?

Thanks

Scott

bcroe

The injectors are peak and hold, sometimes called low impedance.  Each
crank revolution a 10V pulse 2ms long is sent alternately to 4 of the 8
injectors. After 2ms the voltage drops to around 1.5V till the injectors are
closed, 2 to 20ms later.  If a scope shows they receive 1.5V for 50% of
the time (till the other 4 operate), your ECU is bad and the engine floods. 
good luck, Bruce Roe

bwxcadillac

Thanks Bruce i'll try that and let you know the outcome

Thanks again :)

bwxcadillac

I've looked at the ECU and the PC Boards within it, i cannot find the components you suggested that may be faulty Bruce as the wiring diagram on your photobucket page does not seem to match up with what i have here unless i'm looking at the wrong one ???

i've added some photos

bcroe

#14
On the board you have unfolded open are 3 black 14 pin integrated
circuits, your 3rd pic.  Here the left one is marked IC4, center is IC3,
right is IC2.  These have an alignment mark, reversed placement is
very bad.  Your 77 Seville uses my 76 drawings (2 years), my second
album.  The 425 engine in 1977 used my 77 drawings. 

The marking on the actual chips is useless to us, which is why I have
told you the industry generic type.  Bruce Roe

bwxcadillac

Thanks for the clarification Bruce

I have now ordered the relative components

I'll keep this post updated with progress

Fingers crossed  :) :)

bcroe

OK good luck.  The parts are less than the postage, not much to lose. 
From experience I would say your chances of a cure are well above
50-50.  Just do not insert backwards.

Much of the function of those chips is enrichment from temp sensors. 
A failure can cause enrichment to go to infinity, which keeps injectors
open.  Bruce Roe

bwxcadillac

Thanks for your help with this Bruce

I fully understand it may or may not get the car running correctly but i've exhausted most other avenues

I've just noticed that there are variations on the LM224 chip, it appears the following are available LM224J LM224N and LM224AD

I've already ordered the chips but i need to make sure i have the right LM224 before fitting

Also you mention about inserting them backwards, how do you know which way round they go?

I've done alot of electronics work over the years with PCB's but never with chips!

Thanks again

Scott

bcroe

Some versions of a chip come in a different package, like surface
mount or 50 mil pin spacing instead of 100 mil.  You need the DIP,
through hole, 100 mil version to match the board.  Listed in the
chip specs. 

Actually there are some very expensive military versions as well,
which relates to expensive ceramic package, and temp range. 
These might be LM124, as opposed to cheap LM224, etc.  Either
will work in this app. 

Looking at the top, there should be a clear indicator depression at
one end to indicate the pin 1 end.  This may be seen on your
original chips, which lines up with the dip in the outline print box
surrounding the chip.  Do not confuse this with some minor marks
from the moulding process. 

The board is a crude single layer metal, so care must be used
(with a solder sucker) to clean the pin area and resolder without
damage.  Bruce Roe

bcroe

Quote from: bwxcadillac

I've just noticed that there are variations on the LM224 chip, it appears the following are available LM224J LM224N and LM224AD      Scott     

Looks like the N is the exact plastic package.  The CDIP also fits but
comes in a far more expensive (military) ceramic case, may not be
in stock.  Do not get half size/surface mount  AD. 
good luck, Bruce