1939 LaSalle Engine Lifter and Oil Pump Questions

[LaSalle5019]

Two things came up on my engine rebuild and I'm looking for advice.

1) I sent out the lifter bodies to Egge and had the faces reground and polished to go with the new camshaft. I had purchased the "Deluxe Engine Rebuild Kit 1937-1941 Cadillac 346 V8 NEW 37 38 39 40 41" form Old Parts Source on eBay and it came with the lifter plunger assemblies but when put in the lifter bodies they fit down in the bodies much lower that the original plungers (creates about a 1/4" clearance from the valves).  My question is: Were there different variants of lifters in different years?  I'm inclined to just clean and install the original parts as they look good and worked fine.

2) Oil pump pickup - is the pickup designed to float on top of the oil?  There is a dead space in mine that seems filled with oil so I would need to drill a hole and drain it then weld it up and try to reseal it again.  Any advice?  Maybe an aftermarket design I could buy?

Thanks,
Scott

[z3skybolt]

Scott,

There are others who will give you an exact answer with details....but let me tell you a couple of things that I learned the hard way while my 346 was being overhauled.

Yes...there are two different style lifters for the 346 engine.  I don't believe they can be mixed and matched. 

And the one absolute and necessary fact is that the valves have to be set exactly as prescribed in the manual.  Each one must be individually measured and set.  Otherwise there will be lifter noise.

Despite my request for new lifters my "expert" rebuilder decided to use my old lifters(my cam was good).  He cleaned them and reinstalled but did not set the new valves properly. They ended up very noisy.  I eventually bought a new set of matched lifter plungers and bodies, from Terrill machine: had a different mechanic take out the old ones, install the new set and cut the valve stems to precisely the correct setting.  Over 4,000 miles later the lifters remain silent.

Noisy lifters in the most common complaint after an engine overhaul on these flatheads.  I would cut no corners concerning the lifters.  If they aren't exactly right....it is common to be disappointed.  There was a long article on this subject posted on the CLC Forum some time ago.

Perhaps one of the persons here with factual knowledge will answer your questions technically. I can only offer the experience of a novice....who spent a ton of money getting my engine right.

P.S.  You may want to use a "lifter tester" and test each one of your assembled lifters regardless of which onse you assemble and plan to install.  When my old ones were taken back out by the second mechanic he tested them and six failed...collapsing quickly when pressure was applied.  We also tested my new ones from Terrill and found one of the 16 that failed the test. Terrill then sent me 6 new ones to test and replace the one bad one.  The first new one tested properly right out of the box. We returned the other five plus the bad one.  Including a picture of the lifter tester.

Good luck,

Bob R.

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

Hard to talk about this without defining all parts first.  First there is the part that you had ground that touches the cam which I like to call the cam follower.  Next is the lifter which consist of two parts, the body and the plunger.  These are the two parts that are matched to a very close tolerance and cannot be mixed up.  The cam follower and lifter body are not matched.  They can be mixed up.  There are two designs in the cam followers and lifter bodies.  They are the same design but the step that the lifter body hits the step in the cam follower is at a different location.  This happened in 41 and up, so the lifters you got are for 41 and up.  In 48 there is a completely different design that used the lifters that would be used in the up coming 49 OHV engine.  Why did Cadillac make this change in 41.  Don't really know but there is a possibility that the material of the follower changed to go with the cam change in 41 and they didn't want the mechanics to mix them up.  The camshaft changed from steel to cast iron in 41.  When you face the follower it is best to at least spot check the actual clearance of the lifter.  A collapsed lifter should have .030 to .070 clearance.  Cadillac had a cheater on this.  Instead of measuring the actual clearance they used a dimension of 3 inches from the cam to the valve stem but this assumes that the follower is the exact dimensions as it left the factory.  The amount you took off the follower may still be okay doing this method since there is .040 range but still worth spot check of an actual lifter.
The oil pickup is a float.

[z3skybolt]

Brad,

For my education is it correct to say that what I called the "body" is actually the cam follower?  In simple laymen terms.... is the piece that the plunger and plunger body fits and locks down into the "cam follower"?  The base of which rides on the cam lobes?  If so I have been using the wrong terminology all along. 

Thank you for your response.  Little by little I learn.

bob r.

[LaSalle5019]

Excellent.  Thank you Bob and Brad for the answers.  I would be unable to match the cam followers back but the internal lifter parts have been kept in matched sets so I think we're good there.  I like the idea of doing a bleed down test so will do that.  I was planning on doing the collapsed lifter test and look for the 0.050" plus/minus 0.020".

On the pickup, I have been unable to find anyone that sells an aftermarket part so I will attempt to drain and repair the one I have.  I'm thinking of drilling a hole, draining the oil, then soldering closed.  After which I can submerge it in very hot water and look for where bubbles may be escaping as the air inside expands and do a bit more soldering.

Total overhaul is getting close to being done finally. I merged Walt Brewer's information and some excepts and photos from the Tank Engine manual along with tips I found on this forum to create a single document to guide the process.
Scott

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Scott,.
I have several good used oil pickups. I fail to understand the problem with yours. Please post here or contact me directly at bobscads@comcast.net.
Thanks, Bob

[Steve Passmore]

Scott,.
I have several good used oil pickups. I fail to understand the problem with yours. Please post here or contact me directly at bobscads@comcast.net.
Thanks, Bob

I think his problem is Bob that a pin hole has rusted through the float causing the thing to fill with oil over the years and sink to the bottom of the pan. I have had this happen on 2 engines, one was irripairable but the other soldered up fine once the oil was out.

[LaSalle5019]

Correct Steve.  It looks like it was reworked once before as it has a soldered up hole in it and the crimp and inlet look to be "messed" with. Sending Bob an email to try to get a replacement.
Scott

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

More on nomenclature.  Cadillac had the names Valve Lifter (Gp. 8.2700) and Plunger, Hydraulic Valve Lifter(Gp. 8.2701). then in the diagram they call it Body Gp. 8.2700 and Plunger Gp. 8.2701. What they called the Valve lifter and Body Group is what I like to call the cam follower(mushroom part).  The Plunger has to be sold as consisting of the two parts since they are a matched assemble so Cadillac just used the name Plunger.  In describing these parts we still need a name for each of those parts so that's why I like to call them in order the cam follower, lifter body and plunger.  In looking in the parts book to go through this again the prices are interesting.  The cam follower is the exact same price as the lifter body and plunger assembly at $1.02.

[z3skybolt]

Thanks Brad,

I think that I've got it!!  Might take some explaining when talking to others but I think I can discuss the subject with more clarity than in the past.

By the way my new set of "cam followers" and plungers cost me around $800.00.  That is a lot of inflation in 79 years.

Thanks for your help.

bob r.

[LaSalle5019]

One thing I find interesting on the Cadillac lifter setup. From collapsed to fully extended they have 0.170" travel. Think about what wears the most on the valvetrain.  Unless there is something really wrong it is not the cam to lifter interface nor is it the lifter to valve stem interface, it is most likely the valve to valve seat interface.  If the valve wears into the seat you loose valve stem to lifter clearance.  That all said, why would I want to consider setting the clearance to the 0.030" minimum.  You risk holding a valve open and making the engine run poorly or even burning a valve.  If anything I would tend towards max of 0.070" or even center of travel which is about 0.085".  More than likely, you'll close the gap over time.
Scott