Points and condensers vs. electronic ignition module conversions

[Caddy Wizard]

My good friend Jay Friedman and I collaborate all the time on old Cadillac projects and agree on many, many things.  But Pertronix vs. points is not one of them.  I was a mechanic for 10 years, I own a beat-up distributor machine that lets me set the dwell on a points distributor rather accurately, and I've done the dual-points thing a number of times.  But I don't run anything but Pertronix electronic ignition modules in my old cars.


The Pertronix modules are very reliable, but when they do fail it can be without warning.  They run better, start easier, and are maintenance-free.  On starting, some of the units modify the energy delivered to improve starting.  Some also can adjust the timing slightly at differing RPMs to maximize ignition performance.


If you do choose a Pertronix module, pay careful attention to the instructions.  They are very simple to install, but are sensitive to the wrong input voltage, solid core plug wires will damage them, and they can be damaged by leaving the ignition key on but not running.


Recently, I wrote to the Pertronix folks to see if they could/would share reliability data with me and us.  They said they can't or don't have data to share.  But they did confirm that most failures of their systems are the result of self-inflicted damage.  Things such as using the wrong plug wires, leaving the key on (but see below), supplying the wrong primary voltage, etc.  Here is the reply they sent me:

Most of the times the [reliabilty] failure is self inflicted. I personally have had one in a motor for the past 20 years and abuse this poor motor but it always starts. Unfortunately, I do not have any data or sheets to share this with you, but your reasons for issues are correct. The Ignitor 2 and 3 eliminate the issue of leaving the ignition on, as they have a safety built into them. Another issue can happen when someone tries starting their car on certain battery chargers and the battery is bad. It will send a pule that can affect the unit. These things [the electronic ignition modules] are pretty stout though.


I'll be driving to the GN in my 55 with Pertronix.  I installed it two years ago and haven't had to give it another thought since.

[Bentley]

Art,

So if you choose to install the Pretronix kit, would it be advisable to also buy an extra module to carry in your trunk in case the first one fails?

[walt chomosh #23510]

I carry a spare Petronix module and coil in my trunk. (not to mention my original points and condensor) I had both my Petronix module AND coil fail on me at one time! (separate incidents) However, that was years ago and I continue to use Petronix stuff. Failure of parts sucks and NO ONE wants to have to work on their car along the road. (mine was at the grocery once.... Petronix coil...my original 1955 coil was in my trunk thank goodness) The other failure was out crusing one summer (it gets hot in Oklahoma!) with my wife. (reinstalled the points and condensor to get home that time) This is a mechanic that even pulls his distributor every third year or so to spin on a distributor machine to verify perfect  timing...be sure to carry spare ignition parts!....walt...tulsa,ok

[Caddy Wizard]

Art,

So if you choose to install the Pretronix kit, would it be advisable to also buy an extra module to carry in your trunk in case the first one fails?

On the one hand, statistically speaking, it probably isn't worth the expense and effort to carry a spare ignition module.  The failure rate seems rather low, although the company would not or could not share hard data with me.  Simply from a physical or physics(!) standpoint, the electronics module should be extremely reliable.  Indeed, that is part of why the entire automotive sector switched away from points to electronic ignition.  If points were more reliable and worked better then electronic ignition, cars would still be sold new with points.  They aren't.

On the other hand, the ignition module isn't available at every parts store you are going to encounter along the road, whereas there is a greater chance that the parts store might have a condensor that would work or a set of points that would fit.  So if the reliable electronic ignition module does fail, you might be stuck for a day or two unless you either carried a spare module or your old set of points and condenser.  The cheapest thing would be to hold onto your old points and condenser and tote those along on trips.  Switching back is a bit of a hassle on the side of the road.  If you do choose to carry a spare ignition module, changing that out on the side of the road is a snap -- literally just a few minutes without removing the distributor.  You can pick up a workable coil at any parts store, so those are probably not an issue (but lots of folks throw one in the trunk for long trips).  Same for plug wires and plugs.

Most likely ignition failure on a long trip in an old Cadillac is probably the rotor button!  Lots of us have steered to the side of the road due to a rotor button that came whizzing apart at highway speeds, sometimes taking a bit of the cap with it.

[cadillacmike68]

I swear by the points & condenser.

My car cold starts in less than 1/10 of a second unless its been sitting for days.

That said, I do keep a spare cap, rotor and 2 P&C sets in the trunk at all times. It all fits inside the cap box. A bad cheap points set from a reman'd dist set failed on me a ways from home and I had no spares. I also keep a set of wires too, but could probably do with just one long and one medium length wire to save some space.

[INTMD8]

I have nothing against electronic conversions and have used them but have no motivation on my 59. Runs phenomenal on points so will stick with them.

[Caddy Wizard]

I have nothing against electronic conversions and have used them but have no motivation on my 59. Runs phenomenal on points so will stick with them.

I am not trying to "convert" points people to electronic ignition modules (pun intended)!  Lots of folks will never want to make such a switch, either because they don't trust electronic ignition modules, the modules aren't original, and/or they lack the "charm" of tinkering with points and condensers and being knowledgeable about a technology that is obsolete.  No, changing the minds of those in the points/condenser school of thought does not motivate me to post stuff like this.


I am just trying to shed a little light on a somewhat controversial topic.  Folks tend to swear by or at one or the other of these technologies.  I wish I could have provided some hard statistical data, instead of just talking about anecdotes.  But alas, I couldn't get the data.

[wrench]

Well, regarding a spare module, I would recommend for an old school, conventional, stock vehicle, that one should have a spare distributor and a spare carburetor ready to go as that would be the quickest way to troubleshoot an issue under the old fuel, air and ignition rule of thumb.

So it would not be unreasonable to have a spare module handy to eliminate a lot of time and effort in troubleshooting...and reduce potential downtime in case it is the module.

Spares provisioning is a philosophical discussion and factors in many things such as reliability, cost and availability...

[Jay Friedman]

Most likely ignition failure on a long trip in an old Cadillac is probably the rotor button!  Lots of us have steered to the side of the road due to a rotor button that came whizzing apart at highway speeds, sometimes taking a bit of the cap with it.

As Art implied in his 1st posting, I'm a points and condenser true believer.  Reasons are various and include liking to deal with old technology as well as they let you know when they are ready to be replaced, usually without a sudden failure.  I use NOS Delco points bought in quantity on ebay and a Madison Tractor Co. condenser recommended by John Washburn (of Washburn's Wisdom fame.)  Yes, condensers do very occasionally suddenly fail, but probably no more and possibly less often than an electronic system failure.  (No data available on this either.)

As Art mentioned, rotor failure, which would occur equally frequently with an electronic or a points system, has happened to me twice over the years on my '49.  Both times were at high speeds on an interstate and when using the type of rotor with a rod shaped carbon element meant to suppress radio noise.  The carbon piece just flew out of its place, causing the motor to just stop.  Luckily, I was able to coast to a stop on the side of the highway both times without incident, but it could have been dangerous.  Instead of spare point and condenser sets, I have always carried a complete spare distributor equipped with new parts, so each time I just lifted the new rotor from the spare and was on my way.  I later discovered that earlier Cadillacs with the same distributor cap used a rotor without the noise suppressing rod and, therefore, nothing to fly off.  So I now use those exclusively and, I hope, solved the problem. 

[cadillacmike68]

Carry around an entire distributor as a spare in the trunk?? Have you actually replaced a distributor on the side of the road Jay?

[Caddy Wizard]

Carry around an entire distributor as a spare in the trunk?? Have you actually replaced a distributor on the side of the road Jay?

It is probably easier to pop out a distributor and replace the entire unit compared to trying to replace the points with the distributor still in the car.  Certainly, if I am replacing points on a pre-56 model, I find it easier to remove the distributor for the job.  Starting in 56, Cadillac made the job a lot easier since you can adjust the dwell with the engine running using the little window on the side of the cap...

[TJ Hopland]

Having the distributor up front in the 60's&70's made it easier to work on too.

[Jay Friedman]

Carry around an entire distributor as a spare in the trunk?? Have you actually replaced a distributor on the side of the road Jay?

Mike, I haven't had to do it yet on the side of the road (touch wood), but on a '49 like mine it's not that difficult.  In my garage I estimate that it takes no more than 30 minutes.  A '49 distributor is connected by, the vacuum advance tube, 1 wire and the cap, is held down by a simple clamp and because of an offset tang on the bottom can only go back in the motor 1 way.  For tools to do the job I carry in the trunk a basic timing light that runs on flashlight batteries and a distributor wrench.  As Art wrote, it's less time consuming than changing the points and condenser, either with the distributor in the car or with the distributor removed.

[bcroe]

The pickup coil on an HEI is a part that cannot be changed without
complete disassembly, so I am inclined to carry the bottom half of
an HEI.  No am not really planing to change it on the road, but the
job will be far quicker if the right parts are at hand.  Bruce Roe

[V63]

I have had the tiny magnets 🧲 that glue into the pertronix plastic ‘rotor’ attachment fall out! As many as 4 or 5! Tow truck rescue 😩. It was an extremely hot day, 110f plus. I ordered a replacement ring and soon the same thing happened. The magnets were adhered to the distributor breaker plate, i reglued them back in and coated over the whole trigger ring with 2 part epoxy, problem solved. I have done this epoxy procedure ever since. No further issues.

[cadillacmike68]

I have had the tiny magnets 🧲 that glue into the pertronix plastic ‘rotor’ attachment fall out! As many as 4 or 5! Tow truck rescue 😩. It was an extremely hot day, 110f plus. I ordered a replacement ring and soon the same thing happened. The magnets were adhered to the distributor breaker plate, i reglued them back in and coated over the whole trigger ring with 2 part epoxy, problem solved. I have done this epoxy procedure ever since. No further issues.

Another reason for keeping points!.

[fishnjim]

I don't recall any tiny magnets when I put Pertronix in, so maybe that's an early version?  I think they're on #3 now - which is what they sold me.
When I called the factory, the guy recommended the stuff, told me what to do, and it was easy and worked as recommended.   I have issues hanging over the fat fenders to get to the dist, so anything to get around that suits me.   Not a purist or young buck.   Having dealt with points for ~two decades until they went electronic, it was like a breath of fresh air not having to deal with frequent tune-ups or starting or no go issues.  We had more issues with electronic fuel injection when it came out than with electronic ignition.   My neighbor, now deceased, "adjusted" his points so much he wore out/stripped the hold down screw threads and had to have the dist repaired, so they weren't perfect, nor last very long, but do work, otherwise, they would still be used.

[Caddy Wizard]

One thing I think we can all agree on is that there are at least two schools of thought on this and each is firm in its rationale.  To me, there is no "right" answer.  If you like points and enjoy the craftsmanship required to keep them going year after year, great.  On the other hand, if you like electronic ignition for the freedom to forget about the ignition system and focus on other things, that's great too.


This Forum is a great tool for the free exchange of ideas and information.   

[bcroe]

Use what works for you, I know some who have plugged in a
magneto type ignition.  My first electronic ign was adapted purely
to get better performance, it still used points on that 6V engine
but they did not burn out any more. 

To get ALL the performance improvements you need a ground up
new system, designs trying to adapt existing points components
will only provide some benefits.  Then parts and service can be a
problem on the road, and some details have not received the mega
level of test/verification the General can provide.  That is why I run
a straight HEI system in everything.  I realize there are engines for
which they have not been adapted.  Bruce Roe

[76eldo]

I’ve never been stranded by a car with points but I did have an 85 Eldo convertible that left me on the side of the road due to the ignition module failing.

I’ll leave my cars with points unmodified.  They start and run very well.

I do carry spare points with me when I go on long trips like to a GN.

Brian