2019 Annual 5960 Cadillac Chapter Meeting

[Chuck Patton]

If you are a Generation Xer, Millennial or Generation Z you are encouraged to attend.
Please bring a positive attitude, receptive ears and a yearning to learn.
We appreciate your participation, enthusiasm and passion.
Of course, if you are old, bald and ugly like me you can come too.

PLEASE JOIN US FOR OUR NEXT
5960 CADILLAC CHAPTER MEETING
     DATE: FRIDAY,  JUNE 14, 2019
     TIME: 6-7PM
     LOCATION: THE PERRY ROOM
     THE CROWNE PLAZA LOUISVILLE
     830 PHILLIPS LANE
     LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY  40209

[Chuck Patton]

Bump

[Chuck Patton]

We had a great 5960 Cadillac Chapter Meeting this evening.  Our top two topics were celebrating the great restoration that Scott Halver did on his 1960 Eldorado Seville 6437H

AND.....WHEN WILL BILL ANDERSON FINISH THE 1959-1960 CADILLAC AUTHENTICITY MANUAL?
Brian Rachlin and Ron Threadgill have offered to fact check AND FINISH IT.

[gkhashem]

I would suggest whoever finishes it  have the chapter review it before publication.  Can the 59-60 chapter get a committee to review a draft and suggest any changes to discuss with the authors.

There should be more than 1 or 2 people having input. Unless there is already a review in place.

[76eldo]

When Chuck started the chapter one of the first things that was discussed was why there was no authenticity manual. Chuck asked me if I would be willing to work on it.
My first thought was to try to find out what has already been done and try to build on that.  We asked to see what has already been created as we were told that there is an unfinished draft languishing somewhere. At that time from what I can remember there was no response to that request.

Someone needs to complete this if in fact it’s been already started.  It will take exhaustive research and anyone with a truly original car will be enlisted for photos and information.

I did volonteer to work on this and would still be interested if we can get the info on what has already been started and nothing would be done or finalized without  much discussion and investigation of features from original cars.

Since Chuck is the president of the chapter anyone with ideas or concerns should contact him.

Brian

[gkhashem]

Brian

I just hope someone could get the ball rolling. Also people with original cars and vast ownership experience could work on it and review the draft for some input before printing.

No one knows all about any car.

[76eldo]

That was the plan.
All we were asking from the powers that be is for the info on what they may already have and we never got anything.

Seems foolish to create the whole thing from scratch if someone else already started it. Your car would be an excellent source of information.
Other guys like Eric and Joe Puleo would be asked to review and contribute as well.



Brian

[gkhashem]

I agree silly to start over, not sure why any drafts have not appeared?

Who started working on it?

[Chuck Patton]

I applaud the time and effort of the judging team to be proficient without an authenticity manual or owning an original 1959 or 1960 Cadillac model car.

[David Greenburg]

Somehow the judges manage to do it every year without the manual, but it is ridiculous that this has not moved forward over the last 15 or 20 years, or whatever it’s been.  Are there any board members that can help get to the bottom of the issue of the status of the draft.

[Brett Baird]

According to the 2019 Directory '59's are the 3rd most popular year in our club by the numbers at 448 (assuming I counted correctly).  When you add the 356 60’s, those two years total 804 automobiles listed in our club's Directory.  It would seem to me that the numbers alone would suggest that the authenticity manual should have been a priority. With 804 59's and 60's there are certainly a number of owners/cars that would benefit from an authenticity manual, not to mention the number of these cars that are being judged at GN's without the benefit of the documentation and authority an authenticity manual would provide.

As previous posts have indicated, there are a number of qualified individuals in this club who are more than willing to pick up this apparently stalled project, but for some reason have been denied the opportunity.  How can we get this project back on track?     

[gkhashem]

Bringing up the manual again, I was speaking to a CLC member who had their car judged this year. He was told he got dinged for the cap of the power steering reservoir not being silver. Also the oil filter holder cover not being black.

So much for being informed about the correct or acceptable colorings. I all know is the colors in this photo should be acceptable.

We do need a manual.

This is before I shined it up some when I first got the car.It looks somewhat better now but still not painted over.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

I, for myself, have no idea why the second most popular car in the Club doesn't have an authenticity manual. When I asked Pete Peters to jump start the process, he did so magnificently. All of the years that HAVE been done were done the same way.  A volunteer stepped up, found some help and simply got started.

As to where the "work that's been done" is, it seems that no one knows. There is absolutely no reason to  blame "the powers that be," as they would like the work done as well as the owners. Simply assume that it is lost forever. One of you, and I would not presume to approach any of you, needs to look in the mirror, feel a moment of shame that you haven't stepped up before and simply start.

What I would do is divide the cars up into sections. Hood, roof, trunk area, wheels, engine bay, seats, dash, etc, etc, etc. You guys "know" the people with the good cars. Pick up the phone and call them. Have a good chat and before you hang up, assign them an area of the cars to work on. Don't even think about the Broughams to start, unless a prize winning owner wants to volunteer.

Find original cars and take loads of pictures. It's as simple as that. Someone can start, or all of you can complain and moan about the lack of this manual. It's not going to happen overnight. But if someone, way back when, hadn't started "something," we'd all be driving on the RH side of the road and drinking tea instead of Starbucks.

I've never had a '59/'60. Forty years ago I passed up a running '60 convertible from a dealer friend for $250. I didn't even walk back to look closely at it. So, you don't want me. One of you needs to take a deep breath, and simply "do it." Best of luck to whomever has the balls to do this.

[59-in-pieces]

With all due respect to Barry, I too chatted with Pete Peters - WAY WAY WAY back in the day about this same topic and was told it was in good hands and to "back off" - to put it in terms all, even me, could understand.
Flash Flash forward, I learned that in about 2007 or 8, a very fine gentleman was working on the manual - "Duke" Gerke - I talked to him several years back, who told me he was writing down the draft on tablet pages and his wife was transcribing the pages into the computer, from his knowledge and that of his friends and other owners, along with pictures. NO DISRESPECT TO THE METHODS OR TO DUKE - SIMPLY A PROCESS OF THE TIMES.
Flash forward, I was told, after more time passed, that several members were reached out to, to help and was flat out met by: NO's or crickets, or what I personally find WEAK, I'll review it when its done (meaning = by others).

Today, as I understand it - since I'm very close to the newly anointed lead author - that all but the "final" two chapters have been drafted and reviewed, and those suggested changes will be incorporated/completed in a global update, when the final two chapters have been reviewed.
The final two chapters (minus any additional Exhibits) are for the Interior and Exterior of the cars, and that a fair amount of work has already been put into completing the initial drafts, simultaneously - as they are so often co-dependent, at least as to: accessories,  style design and coloring issues.

I'm told that the plan is to complete the reviews of the final chapters, incorporate the global modifications; AND THEN, distribute the completed draft Manual for a "PEER REVIEW" (at which point, let the carnage of clashing opinions begin).

If all goes according to plan, the PEAR REVIEW should begin in the forth quarter (OH, THE PRESSURE - PERFORMANCE ANXIETY) - weasel words "subject to change without notice".

Have fun,
Steve B.

[gkhashem]

Barry has the idea on how to get it done but who is in charge now? I have no idea.

So who is or are the "powers that be"?

Since it is all but written can we have a committee for peer review. How about getting photos of original cars to use for illustration other than the black and white shop manual pictures. Maybe use these for the manual?

I am sure many of us would be willing to review a draft and give input. But I often have heard some say this is so or that is so and I know they are wrong or at least not open to the possibility that maybe there was some variation in production.

Just silly to start over if there is a draft out there somewhere. But I feel under no circumstances should this be a one man show. No one is that smart.

But just from what I heard from a CLC entrant this year there is still some improper opinions out there from some who judge. No offense intended so none of this they try hard pablum. That is a given and obvious, but we really should strive for improvement. Try hard but be more knowledgeable about the cars. Both can be done.

[Jeff Wilk]

George I couldn’t agree with you more. There are so many good intentioned people that volunteer but don’t have enough experience to simply be able to know this level of exacting detail. We absolutely need a peer review committee of people who own original vehicles and/or have that rare documentation.

Joe Puleo as an example, and as mentioned earlier by Brian, is not only a fantastic guy always willing to go that extra mile many times over, but he has, and has had absolutely one of the largest and best collections of 59’s for twenty years or so. And with that knowledge and willingness to help he also knows of other collectors that would be willing to help.

As one small example, I can tell you a story about what Joe and I went through to decipher a unique and subtle difference discovered about the varying widths of the pleating for the special headliner on the 1959 Fleetwood Sixty Special model of which we were both working on at the time. Turns out that none of the reproductions being sold by very reputable suppliers were correct and instead have the pleats all uniform and the rod pockets placed incorrectly creating a new headliner no longer true to the original appearance once installed. I’m certain there are many award winning ‘59’s out there with the incorrect headliner simply as many don’t know, including judges, and assume that the repros are right since we have no Authenticity Manual.

Nowhere in this string is/are the person/persons named who have the current draft. Did I miss that someplace?  Steve seems to know who it may be. It’s a massive commitment for sure and one which will surely get “picked” at by other well meaning experts. I’d think if we knew who was compiling this first draft we’d all get more comfortable AND could then volunteer our time and knowledge and documentation to assist them with the unfinished parts and begin review of the draft.

Jeff W

[Jason Edge]

Turns out that none of the reproductions being sold by very reputable suppliers were correct and instead have the pleats all uniform and the rod pockets placed incorrectly creating a new headliner no longer true to the original appearance once installed. I’m certain there are many award winning ‘59’s out there with the incorrect headliner simply as many don’t know, including judges, and assume that the repros are right since we have no Authenticity Manual.

Anyone working on an Authenticity Manual has to absolutely ignore any and all aftermarket reproduction items!!!! In the 63/64 Cadillac world I could rattle off dozens of items that are not quite right, or very not right!! Your best source for information is actual original unmolested 1959 and 1960 Cadillacs. You also want a very large sample of cars that span the entire production model year.  The Cadillac documentation is a good reference check source but you also have to understand that what appeared in a shop manual, sales brochure, etc. may have been changed and outdated by the time the car was in production.  The Serviceman Bulletins were usually reliable as they were put out during the production year.  So, ignore reproduction stuff, consider the Cadillac documentation as a good reference check with the understanding that things change during production, and find as many original unmolested 1959/60's as possible to verify what at least that particular car came with from the factory.

Also, regardless of how much someone thinks they know about a particular model year or years, they need to have a very open mind and understand that they will be wrong or have an incomplete understanding on many aspects of the car especially through the course of the production year, and across the different body styles.  I have completely dismantled 50 1963/64 Cadillac parts cars over 22 years, had 6 drivers, but learn something new every time I bring in another car. OK... Corbin clamp at back of carb brake booster hose here, but spring clamp on that one; blue power steering pump pulley on these 20 cars, but black on these 30 cars, black here, cad there, and it goes on and on.

I took up the mantle to facilitate writing a 63/64 Cadillac Authenticity manual a while back, but finally walked away from it due to time constraints and other commitments.  Whoever takes the mantle of the 59/60 manual needs to be very knowledgeable but also open minded and make sure his "team" shares that open mindedness and fervor for learning. As a start, any members should have read thru all Serviceman Bulletins and addendums at least once, and have access to Dealer Data Books, Spec Manuals, Shop Manuals, Owner's Manual and Master Parts Book.  Even between manuals (e.g. data books vs spec manual) you will find discrepancies and that is where you will need to make a collective judgement call, and where there is doubt you need to state as such in order to make sure the owner is given the benefit of the doubt and of course no point deductions in judging.

I wish those working on the 59/60 manual the best of luck, and also hope to see a 63/64 manual in the future.

[Jeff Wilk]

Jason, so very well said. And super examples given too. Thanks for this experiential guidance!!!!

Jeff W.

[59-in-pieces]

Jason,
You and others brought up a great laundry list of resource documents that should be used on each and every Manual - no matter what year.

Way back when, I went to the authenticity manual section of the CLC to buy one - there wasn't one.
I could not understand the harsh reception I received, when I asked about an authenticity manual for the 59-60's from the "powers that be".
I figured, I was the new guy to the club and a whipper snapper who stumbled upon the forbidden inquiry.
So as a result, I said to myself - "screw it"-  and moved on.

Jason, did no one take up the task of a 63-64 manual (didn't check to see).
You sound like you could have been one of the guys on that peer review team.

Have fun,
Steve B.

[johnregrus]

Slightly off topic.

Why can't the club update the currently published Authenticity Manuals merely with an addendum inserted into the current manual every so often?

For example, the 1954-1956 Manual has now been published for 20 years. Over those 20+ years, some items listed in the manual have been found to be incorrect. Other now discovered items that should be added to the Manual but are currently missing.


Senior judges at the Grand Nationals are aware of a number of these inaccuracies and comment on them when judging a car, yet year after year new people with new restorations show up and their restorations are incorrect because they followed the 20-year-old Manual.