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1980 Eldorado 368 engine,resume from Italy

Started by chevy350, June 27, 2019, 10:05:11 AM

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chevy350

Hi to the member,

finally I take at home my new toy,1980 Eldorado with 368(9 digit V.I.N.) engine,it's almost complete.
I want to check to put it again on the street.

I try to start it and it run for a few moment.I put on my shop to check some thing,the firyng order is a way off,I try to explane.
If I'm not wrong,the correct firing order is 1,5,6,3,4,2,7,8,counter clockwise rotation.
With my finger I'm pointing the n°1 spark plug.
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

chevy350

In my case I found,assuming the starting point(n°1) after the tachometer filter.

All spark wires are "Skipped" of one position(8 instead of 1 and so on).
I'll check the spark plug soon.
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

35-709

#2
First off, remember you are dealing with a Cadillac engine NOT a Chevy.  #1 cylinder is on the right (passenger side) of the engine.  You have the firing order in the right sequence but from what I am seeing in your picture you have the #1 plug wire going to the wrong or left side of the engine.  Note CLOCKWISE rotation, not counterclockwise!
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

35-709

May I strongly suggest a 1980 Cadillac Factory Shop Manual --- numerous and easy to find on eBay.  Hopefully a seller will ship to Italy.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

chevy350

Quote from: 35-709 on June 27, 2019, 10:34:49 AM
May I strongly suggest a 1980 Cadillac Factory Shop Manual --- numerous and easy to find on eBay.  Hopefully a seller will ship to Italy.

Thanks for the reply,in my picture you have find the error of the P.O.,starting from my pointing finger I actually have:8,1,5,6,3,4,2,7 .

I check 2 times,I'm a Corvette owner and I know rotation of distributor and cilynder displacement are different.

P.S. sorry sorry for my english.
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

chevy350

On my first post i say counter clockwise,my mistake.
I know  the correct rotation is clockwise.
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

35-709

 :)  Your finger is pointing at what is usually #1, not #8.  Good luck.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

chevy350

Quote from: 35-709 on June 27, 2019, 10:58:21 AM
:)  Your finger is pointing at what is usually #1, not #8.  Good luck.

Correct ! This is what I have found today !
I'm owner from 2 days  8)
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

35-709

1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

chevy350

#9
Today I have check the wire,they are ok,but I think I have the wrong spark plug ,I have NGK TR55 Vpover(in the 7° cilinder another type) with a gap about 1,4 millimeter.
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

TJ Hopland

Does this car still have its fuel injection system in place?  Or has it been converted to a carb?

Are you getting spark?  Even if the order isn't correct I would be expecting some pops and bangs.

These are like any other engine with a distributor in that they don't know or care where #1 is.    If it was running with them one off it will likely need to stay that way unless you pull out and re install the distributor in a different position.    If it has not run that you know of recently then I would guess it was just confusion in the layout of that engine since it is different than other American engines of the era. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

35-709

As to the spark plugs ---

Using Rock Auto's listings --- www.rockauto.com ---  the correct NGK V-Power plug for that engine is an NGK 4268 (GR-45) set at .060 (1.5mm).  The highest quality plug for that engine (according to Rock Auto) is an Autolite XP646 Iridium plug, but there are many others available in their catalog.  The plugs you have should allow to the engine to at least run even if they are not exactly correct. 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,1980,eldorado,6.0l+368cid+v8,1025985,ignition,spark+plug,7212   

You mentioned in your first post that the car starts and runs for a few moments and when TJ asked about your fuel system it brought to mind that maybe you have a fuel delivery issue, even though you are focused on the ignition.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

TJ Hopland

One advantage to this EFI system is if you remove the air cleaner housing and the spacer below it you can see the fuel squirting out of the injectors.   At idle it should be a fairly fine mist that you have to actually look fairly close at with good lighting to see.   If there is streams or big drops or it appears really intermittent or the two don't look identical those are all signs of fuel issues.   

EFI has similar issues to a carb when they sit.  Fuel goes bad and all sorts of corrosion and crud builds up and blocks up tiny passages.   It can actually be worse with EFI since many of the passages are even smaller than on a carb.   All the rubber parts are also subject to the same issues as a carb car.   There are things like the section of hose between the fuel pump and sending unit that Bruce recently mentioned.   Fuel pressure regulator is a rubber diaphragm.

A start and run for a few seconds could also be related to other sensors.  EFI cars often have distinct and sometimes independent form each other systems that are used for various stages of operation.   Cranking can be one system.  Starting can be one.  Afterstart can be another.  After those steps it finally moves into a warming up mode and eventually to the fully warm mode.    Those different steps are relying on different rules so it could be that it gets through the first few steps then runs into some sort of signal its not getting so it stalls.    This is where the factory manual comes in.   Without knowing what those steps are and what is required for each step you are just guessing.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

chevy350

Quote from: TJ Hopland on June 28, 2019, 11:00:21 AM
Does this car still have its fuel injection system in place?  Or has it been converted to a carb?

Are you getting spark?  Even if the order isn't correct I would be expecting some pops and bangs.

These are like any other engine with a distributor in that they don't know or care where #1 is.    If it was running with them one off it will likely need to stay that way unless you pull out and re install the distributor in a different position.    If it has not run that you know of recently then I would guess it was just confusion in the layout of that engine since it is different than other American engines of the era.

Yes the car still have the ignition,I don't want to convert it.
Today I have cranked the engine but nothing it happen,no pops,no back fire,no music  :P
I need to pull the distributor cap (I can find the small wrench dammnn)and the valve cover to find the TDC.
The P.O. told me the car don't run fine he think just 3 cilynder work(I don't think so).
When the car run 2 day ago I think all 8 cilinder work at idle.
You are thinking some one have rotated the distributor of one position?
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

chevy350

Quote from: 35-709 on June 28, 2019, 11:14:53 AM
As to the spark plugs ---

Using Rock Auto's listings --- www.rockauto.com ---  the correct NGK V-Power plug for that engine is an NGK 4268 (GR-45) set at .060 (1.5mm).  The highest quality plug for that engine (according to Rock Auto) is an Autolite XP646 Iridium plug, but there are many others available in their catalog.  The plugs you have should allow to the engine to at least run even if they are not exactly correct. 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,1980,eldorado,6.0l+368cid+v8,1025985,ignition,spark+plug,7212   

You mentioned in your first post that the car starts and runs for a few moments and when TJ asked about your fuel system it brought to mind that maybe you have a fuel delivery issue, even though you are focused on the ignition.

I have checked the site too,I have put it on a wish list,I want replace the water pump too and other stuff.
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

chevy350

Quote from: TJ Hopland on June 28, 2019, 01:04:31 PM
One advantage to this EFI system is if you remove the air cleaner housing and the spacer below it you can see the fuel squirting out of the injectors.   At idle it should be a fairly fine mist that you have to actually look fairly close at with good lighting to see.   If there is streams or big drops or it appears really intermittent or the two don't look identical those are all signs of fuel issues.   

EFI has similar issues to a carb when they sit.  Fuel goes bad and all sorts of corrosion and crud builds up and blocks up tiny passages.   It can actually be worse with EFI since many of the passages are even smaller than on a carb.   All the rubber parts are also subject to the same issues as a carb car.   There are things like the section of hose between the fuel pump and sending unit that Bruce recently mentioned.   Fuel pressure regulator is a rubber diaphragm.

A start and run for a few seconds could also be related to other sensors.  EFI cars often have distinct and sometimes independent form each other systems that are used for various stages of operation.   Cranking can be one system.  Starting can be one.  Afterstart can be another.  After those steps it finally moves into a warming up mode and eventually to the fully warm mode.    Those different steps are relying on different rules so it could be that it gets through the first few steps then runs into some sort of signal its not getting so it stalls.    This is where the factory manual comes in.   Without knowing what those steps are and what is required for each step you are just guessing.   
I have put the light on the injector but I can see nothing.
To be sure what going on I want to start to check the fuel pump,maybe is bad or dirty,change all rubber line,fuel filter.
Please can you post the picture and how it work the fuel regolator?
What is the best way to clean the injector?
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

TJ Hopland

If you have heard it running and it appeared to be running on all 8 then I would not think there is a major issue with the distributor and wires unless you think you did it since last time it was running.   How long would you say it was running on all 8?   

What else can you tell us about the times it was running?

Do you know any more details about this supposed #3 problem?   Other details about its recent history?

I wonder if maybe we have a slipping timing chain?   Does it always sound the same when its cranking?  Or does it sometimes sound like its skipping or hanging up?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

bcroe

1980 is a good year.  If there is any slack in the timing chain set,
it may have the original plastic teeth.  Change it out, not much
fun on a front driver.  Bruce Roe

chevy350

@TJ Hopland:the first time the car start I just drop some gasoline on the butterfly and it start with a small battery(45A !)
I start it 3 or for time and it run for 3 minute and it was really smooth and quite.
When I crank it,I don't ear strange noise just smooth "sound".
The power steering is really perfect,you can use 1 finger to turn it,no leak no strange noise.

The seller told me he use the car for just 10 miles and put it in the storage he have another '75 Eldorado and other 6/7 car so he don't have the time to drive it.

Under the hood it seems unmolested car,neglected but pretty stock.
I check the Coolant recovery tank(correct name?) and I found some moisture and oil in it.
The car is registred here in Sicily from 1999 and it was used just for weddin,is an export car.
The mecanic told to last owner the head gasket was burned.

@bcroe:I want to go step by step,I want to take off the radiator to clean it,chenge water pump and check the timing chain.
I don't wanna be in hurry,the car is a survivor,remeber is not to easy find this car here in Italy,So I need more time I'm not expert on this car.

I really appreciate your help.
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe

chevy350

I think is not a bad engin bay,just dirty.
Best regards from Sicily,Giuseppe