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65 convertible driving experience

Started by johngmm7, July 26, 2019, 03:53:02 PM

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johngmm7

More frustration with my car.  With all that has been done, it should drive like a dream like the two convertibles I had at different times around the mid to late 60's; one a 64 and the other a 67.  The 64 had the better ride; like a magic carpet.  My car should now ride like that. Instead, it feels like driving on cobbles which can be felt through the steering wheel. It's horrible.  All suspension bushings, ball joints and everything else has been renewed ( kit from PST ), front shocks and a new steering pump.  The tyres were renewed all round about 2 to 3000 miles ago and I am wondering if these are the cause. They are HanKook which are very good by all accounts but are they suitable for my car. If not the tyres, I've run out of ideas except that perhaps the wheels are out of round at this age which I don't believe could be possible.  The tyres are kept at Service Manual pressure so not over inflated.

James Landi

Good day John,

I am making this modest suggestion based on decades of Cadillac ownership, but also knowing that this suggestion will cause many negative responses from concerned CLC member.  SO here's the suggestion, as follows: Inflate the tires to the specifications that are recommended for your car.  It's likely 24 pounds front and 22 pounds rear.  Go for a drive at the specified inflation, and you'll notice the difference immediately.  These cars were engineered for bias ply "balloon" tires that literally absord a good deal of the pot holes, etc. With my mid 50's and 60's Cadillacs, I always followed Cadillac inflation specs, and quite often, following regular servicing, I;d have to deflate the tires because virtually no service station would leave my tires at the pressure I wanted.  Will it cost you in fuel, yes a bit. Is it dangerous to ride around on radials that require at least 30 pounds?  Well, there's a good deal of argument, so for my Sunday driver, it was always  inflated to GM specs...however, if we'd take these cars on long trips on highways, yes, then I'd inflate them to 30.  Did I ever experience ply separation and tire failure,  NO.    Happy day,  James

cadillacmike68

#2
In the mid to late 60s there were still no radial tires, so that experience cannot be replicated nowadays., unless you get some of the throwback bias ply tires that sell for $$$$$.

I keep my hankooks on the 68 inflated to between 28-30 psi.  I do a lot of high speed driving, so running them lower is not an option. The ride is good, but the 1996 Fleetwood, also with hankooks, rides better, but not by a lot.

Eventually both sets will wear out and I may get a set of diamondbacks for the DeVille Conv, and might have to for the Fleetwood, because 235-70-15 is getting almost impossible to find.

Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Lowrider2905

I can speak for my 66 SDV, that I bought with first front suspension that I rebuilt after 10k miles. So I drove it long enough to make a good comparison.

After the rebuilt the whole car drove a bit stiffer, but still very soft and comfortable. Then I bought bias ply tires with triple white walls from Coker.

The car drives like a pillow. Quite, no hard bumps or anything else.

Maybe something is gettin loose? My springs where installed wrong, they rubbed on the frame what make fancy noises. Additional to this, the screws from the upper control arm bushings came loose, causing wrong track and wobbly steering.

Greetings, Richard

The Tassie Devil(le)

Putting Radial Ply tyres on a vehicle will always make it ride harder.

I believe it is to do with the steel belting that is within the tyre and nothing else.

Bias Ply tyres of old never had the tough steel belting in their treads, allowing the tyres to simply glide over the surface.

I remember when radials first came in, and the catchcry was "Steel Belts" for road holding and safety.   But, road holding and handling do not really allow for smooth, soft riding.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

cadillacmike68

Bruce, there were belted bias ply tires in the late 60s - early-mid 70s.

Lowrider, I have tweety bird somewhere in my car, he chirps every once in a while. No big deal.

I also have Col Klink's brother, Maj Klunk in my front end. I found out that is, a worn out front lower control arm bushing and two front shock lower bushings. I bought replacement parts, now to get them installed.  I can't mess with suspension repairs.

That will take care of just about all the mechanical items, at which point I can look at getting the seats re-upholstered.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

bcroe

Quote from: johngmm7
The 64 had the better ride; like a magic carpet.  My car should now ride like that. Instead, it feels like driving on cobbles which can be felt through the steering wheel. It's horrible.  All suspension bushings, ball joints and everything else has been renewed ( kit from PST ), front shocks and a new steering pump.

I cannot see exactly what was done, but would ask this.  Were all
the bushings replaced with stock rubber types, the poly version
may handle better at loss of smoothness?  And, have all the body
to frame bushings been replaced?  The steering coupling can be at
issue as well.  Bruce Roe

hornetball

Does this model have a steering damper?  My Eldo did, and it was shot.

TJ Hopland

I'm curious to hear his answers to tire pressure and type of bushings.   

The Hankooks are not the softest ride ever but are decent unless you are running them at 45 psi like I believe it says on the side of the tires.  45 psi will make em ride like a truck for sure. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

64\/54Cadillacking

I have Bias Ply tires on my 64, and the ride is squishy soft, but there’s still a lot of road vibrations that make it into the cabin. I need to do all the suspension bushings which could be the cause of that.

BTW I have WW Hankook  Optimos on my 78 Lincoln and it rides very smooth, so I really think it depends on the car and the suspension geometry.

For instance I recently put some off brand WW tires on my 87 Brougham and the ride is rough!!

I installed 235/75 WW Cooper-trendsetters on the fronts at first and those tires absorbed everything, but they looked way too big and the WW was too thin. So I purchased 225/75 Ironman WW tires to replace the Coopers, and these Ironmans don’t absorb bumps well at all.

But they look nice. So it’s a uneven balance of looks over a smooth ride.

Eventually I’ll replace them with something better quality in the future.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Scot Minesinger

I renewed a 1965 Cadillac SDV with similar issues to your original post, and I offer:

1.  On tires, Hankook I'm not a fan, but setting aside what is more important is the balancing.  Balancing must be done lug centric, not hub centric (common way now), and often the rims are bad and require replacement.  However, tire balancing is often neglected - check it out.  The radial tires at 32-35 psi should be just fine. 

2.  The power steering pump has little impact, the power steering gear and rag joint are a much bigger impact, those should be attended to without exception to clean up the smoothness of the front end.

3.  The body to frame bushings probably need to be replaced - that will be huge.  Attached are the pictures of the worst bushing I replaced on the 1965 SDV under center of radiator.  Plus had to replace the back four under trunk.  These are critical.

4.  On the suspension restore work, verify that the upper and lower control arm bushing were in great condition or replaced (front and rear) - springs had to come out for front suspension work. 

5.  On the steering restore work, verify that the upper and lower front ball joints were in great condition or replaced (front springs had to come out).  Verify that the center link, idler arm, inner and outer tie rods were all in excellent repair or replaced.

6.  In removing the front springs they only go back one way and if the manual was not consulted, they are probably installed back wrong.  Further verify that all of the work in items 4 and 5 above are correctly done.

I did all these things for the 1965 SDV owner and about a half hour after he left he called - never a good sign right?  Anyway it was a good call, he said "Can't believe how driving down the road at 70 mph seems so effortless and smooth".  It is about getting everything that impacts your complaint addressed correctly (emphasis on correctly) - one or two items not done and a bad result persists.

Hope it all works out, and you enjoy your Cadillac.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

cadillacmike68

#11
Quote from: TJ Hopland on July 28, 2019, 11:21:12 PM
I'm curious to hear his answers to tire pressure and type of bushings.   

The Hankooks are not the softest ride ever but are decent unless you are running them at 45 psi like I believe it says on the side of the tires.  45 psi will make em ride like a truck for sure.

That is MAX COLD PRESSURE! Not recommended daily running pressure.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

johngmm7

So much help and information from everyone regarding my questions.  Please accept my thanks for all the input. I shall be putting in a lot of time now investigating everything; loads of points I had never considered and things I'd never heard about.  John

64\/54Cadillacking

#13
Quote from: johngmm7 on August 01, 2019, 01:36:04 AM
So much help and information from everyone regarding my questions.  Please accept my thanks for all the input. I shall be putting in a lot of time now investigating everything; loads of points I had never considered and things I'd never heard about.  John


No problem! BTW certain year Cadillacs were engineered to use either Bias Ply or Radial tires that worked together with the suspension components.

The softer Bias Ply tires should allow for better road absorption and a smoother ride especially on a 64 and 65 Cadillac like it was designed for.

Another major difference between the 64 and 65 year, is the rear suspension.

The 64 has an upper control arm with a ball joint like piece that is connected above the rear axle. This design allows for greater rear suspension wheel travel and flexibility . It basically gives the suspension more freedom back there to move around and adjust for uneven road conditions better than the 4 link trailing arm setup that started in 65 onwards.

I can definitely tell the difference driving my 64 which feels way more “airy” and floaty on the road vs my former 72 Cadillac Sedan Deville.

The upper and lower  trailing arms and the change in the location of the coil spring in 65, plus the changes that were made by going to an all perimeter frame, gave the 65 Cadillac a more controlled ride with less float.

I think that is part of reason the 64’s ride so nicely and really gave Cadillacs the nickname “boats” or “floating down the road”. However as time went on Cadillac slowly started to firm up its ride, but they still rode very smooth.

Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

chrisntam

My '70 rides like crap too, I have Hankook tires on it as well.

I'm sorting it out, I've replaced front suspension and steering components and no real difference.  Replaced rear trailing arms, no real difference.

Going to look at the tires next and will likely have to get into the body to frame bushings.

Steering box is original as is the rag joint.

I feel every bump on the road.

I had a '75 olds 88 vert that rode and drove a lot better and it had a salvage title when I bought it.
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

johngmm7

I have been searching for hours over the past three days trying to find body to frame bushings specific to a 65 deville convertible without success.  I heard from Rubber the Right Way who told me they're not listed in their catalogue because they don't exist for the 65 but they do for the 66. How odd is this?? Virtually the same cars in this respect I believe.  Haven't yet taken a good look under my car but will have to do so and take some pic's to be able to see exactly what's there.  There are different locations for these on the conv v the sedans. I also need a new (rebuilt) steering box as mine is leaking everywhere. These are also proving to be difficult to find; I have seen one or two on RockAuto and another site but the don't appear to resemble mine.........on and on it goes.
John

johngmm7

Having been under my car looking at the bushings, I found the one under the radiator which looks a bit squishy and easy to replace IF I can find a replacement.  The two at the back just behind the rear wheels don't look bad at all - rubber very solid. Judging by the condition of these two, i think it might be safe to assume the rest are OK. It must be possible to renew the ones inside the frame if they need renewing but how; anyone done this other than during a body off restoration.
I took a look at the steering box fitting and it doesn't look too difficult. The shop manual instructions appear quite simple so I think I'll buy a rebuild kit if I don't find a reasonable Delco rebuilt.

Scot Minesinger

Of course I have replaced all the body bushings on several 1965-70 Cadillacs - send me an e-mail and I will send you the article on how to do it.  Just because the rubber is good, does not mean it is OK.  The 1971 and newer Cadillacs used better quality bushings.  Just about every 1965-70 Cadillac suffered some degree of body to frame bushing replacement required.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Kamusenue

Thanks man.  I am looking at a 65 and a 68 caddy convertible also.  The first link is too rusty and too nasty, the second is way too nice.  If you youtube Cummings Cadillac yeah he spelled it wrong you will see a badass example.  Not exactly how I want to do it, but you get the drift.