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1952 Cadillac 331 engine lifter question

Started by Hilarius, August 09, 2019, 09:20:55 AM

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Hilarius

My 1952 331 engine was rebuilt with the De Luxe engine kit from Old Parts Source, including 16 hydraulic lifters, push rods and rockers.
From the very start some of the valves rattled even after driving the car for a distance.
Took off the rocker covers and found that some of the rockers could be pushed down about 1/16".
Took the heads off and all the lifters out and filled them up with oil completely to avoid having to wait for them to fill up under oil pressure.
Engine was silent for a little while and then started rattling again.
Took the heads off and the lifters out, again, and turned the engine with the starter to see if oil came out of the supply holes in the lifter bores.
Oil welled out, all right, so the thing was reassembled and started to about the same result.
Now I thought that maybe the oil pressure was too low and attached a measuring device to the pressure contact switch.
The reading was 15psi at idle and 25 psi at high revs. Just as the shop manual said it should have.
So, almost at my wit's end I considered the old lifters and the new ones.
Both have an oil feed groove around the body and while the new lifter bodies have only one oil feed bore of small diameter in said groove, the old ones have three and of at least twice that diameter.
So, as a last resort I thought that maybe the correct oil pressure was not sufficient to keep the new one-hole-lifters fully supplied and maintain the necessary pressure in the lifter's ball valve chamber.
Any thoughts, any experience with those lifters, any advice??
Or did I overlook something else?


Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

fishnjim

Check to make sure the lifters match up to the oil holes and check dimensions.  They might be chosen as the "same" in terms of overall size/height but not design.   If you have the old parts, it's easier.   Since OEM parts are not always available, good rebuilders check/match/adjust for parts differences, not just slap in what came in the kit.   Variation in gaskets etc. can cause clearance issues.   
Insure the proper oil is used, not heavier, or lighter.

Dilemma: take back to rebuilder who messed it up, fix yourself, or take chance somewhere else.  All depends.

There is some play in the hydraulics but they should not clack or chatter.   If not corrected, you'll have wear or sticking issues.   Remember why they came to be, to overcome issues with solid lifters.

Jay Friedman

Did the valves rattle with the old lifters before the engine was rebuilt?  If they did not, in addition to what fishnjim wrote, why not try re-installing the old lifters and see if there is an improvement in the clicking noise.

Quote from: Hilarius on August 09, 2019, 09:20:55 AMTook the heads off and the lifters out, again, .....

I'm also curious as to why you took the cylinder heads off to remove the lifters.  On my '49's 331 motor, I only remove the intake manifold, the valley cover, the 4 cylinder head bolts holding on the rocker arms, the rocker arms and the push rods to take out the lifters.  There is no need to remove the heads.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

Caddy Wizard

Check the Shop Manual for the oiling path.  It sounds like the lifters are not getting oil pressure.  Note that when you filled the lifters with oil, initially it was quiet and then the lifters eventually became noisy again.  That tells me that the lifters are not getting oiled, for one reason or another.  And without the oil pressure going into the lifters, the slack in the valve train will not be taken up.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

Hilarius

fishnjim:
the lifters I used are, of course, and as described, not the same in design as the old ones but in height they are. Wouldn't know where to get other ones similar to the old ones. Looked at others for Buick or Olds - they are much the same in design as the ones I now used.
There are no variations in the head gaskets nor in the oil used, nor is there any play within the lifters that could make them stick.
Jay:
I don't know how I could have overlooked the obvious. Really it is quite unnecessary to take off the heads. In know it and did it before but must have blacked out on that matter. Many thanks for reminding me!!
The car and engine, when I got them, were in very bad shape. The engine could barely be started and emanated loud noises of all kinds.
When taking off the rocker covers, they and the rocker arms and shafts were bone dry. There had not been any oil up there in years although the car was advertised as a "good driver" when sent to Germany.
The rockers where they touch the valve ends were very badly run in as were the valve ends and as were the rockers on the shafts and the shafts themselves. The lifters, with only one exception were severely caved in by the cam lobes. All these parts under the rocker covers are new, now, the oil flow is good.
So I don't think that re-installing the old lifters would bring about an improvement. It would possibly show that the new lifters are unfit, but it might ruin the camshaft lobes, I am afraid. I'll leave that as a last resort if no one comes around with a like experience with those "Old Parts Source" lifters.
I still (maybe wrongly) assume that the one small feeding hole in the new lifters is not sufficient for the oil pressure to reach the bottom of the lifters, as mentioned before.
Anyone who has used the above lifters, please, chime in and let me know of your experience.
Art:
I thought along the same lines and checked the oil pressure with a gauge. It is OK.
It is rather improbable that the pressure should be obstructed on both sides of the engine in both feeding channels. That's why I suspected the lifters.
Hilmar.
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

Jay Friedman

I agree with Art.  It could be the oil galleries that supply oil to the lifters are clogged with sludge and dirt which the rebuilder may not have cleaned out sufficiently.  As a result, while you may have 25 pounds of oil pressure at the pressure contact switch hole, it may be less at the points where oil is fed to the lifters.

Also, I don't know if this is relevant, but if I'm not mistaken the shop manual says 25 psi is the minimum oil pressure at high revs.  Most 331 motors I'm familiar with usually have 30 to 35 psi at high revs.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

walt chomosh #23510

Hilmar,
  This may have nothing to do with your noise but let me tell you what caused my rocker noise. (1955CDV) If I allowed my oil level to get approx 1quart low, the rockers (the last parts to be oiled in the oiling system) would chatter. In my case it turned out to be the seal (lack of) between the oil pump pickup tube and the block. I made a seal out of felt (after talking to Fel-Pro) and life is good. Apparently parts manuals show early 50s 331 had no seal. When I assembled the motor I KNEW there should be a seal there but there wasn't one in my gasket kit so I drove on. So, if the oil level was low the pickup tube sucked air. This did lead to motor damage. (rod bearings) I threw a new set of bearings in it (no crank damage) and all is well....walt...tulsa,ok

Hilarius

Jay:
to check on flow through the oil galleries, I took out several lifters and turned the engine with the starter. Oil welled out of the supply holes in the lifter bores, all right. Impossible to say whether the pressure is sufficient by this method, but serving to establish that the passages are not fully clogged. Possible that the pressure at the contact switch is higher than at the lifters. Have to attach the measuring gauge to the plug in the front of the oil gallery.
The 52 book states that at idle 15 psi, and 25 psi at a speed of 30 mph are normal. Might be worth a try to push up the pressure by 10 psi.
Walt:
interesting to read what happened to your engine, but in my case none does apply. The engine oil level was always up to the mark, and there is a gasket between the oil pump and the block.
Thanks to all of you for the input.
Hilmar
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

Jay Friedman

#8
Quote from: Hilarius on August 11, 2019, 01:03:49 AM
Jay:The 52 book states that at idle 15 psi, and 25 psi at a speed of 30 mph are normal. Might be worth a try to push up the pressure by 10 psi.

Hilarius, My mistake, as I got my information on oil pressure from the '49 shop manual, which does use the word "minimum" regarding 25 psi.  It seems that by '52 normal pressure was 25 psi. 

You can increase the oil pressure by putting a stiffer pressure regulating spring in the oil pump.  However, the stiffer springs I have known, which are frequently supplied in rebuilding kits, increase the pressure much too high--that is, to 75 psi or more. 

Since the oil flow in your motor may be OK as you wrote, my next guess is that you have defective valve lifters.  If you do decide to buy another set of lifters, contact Terrill Machine Company in DeLeon, Texas (no email, only phone) or Egge Machine Company in California, which are both very reputable firms.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

Hilarius

Jay,
if I decide to push up the oil pressure, I'd get a spring that needs only slightly more pressure than the original one, not to increase pressure too much like to the 75 psi you mentioned. The dimensions extended and compressed and the psi are in the book.
First, though, I'll attach my pressure gauge to the plugs at the front headers to see if pressure is OK in those places.
About the lifters I can say that they are brand new and look good inside and out.
Can't imagine that Old Parts Source sell defective lifters.
One would have heard about it.
The only difference between the old and the new lifters is that the new ones have only one small hole in the groove around the lifter body while the old ones have three which are wider.
So, with oil pressure in the right dimensions (which I will check, again, as said above, and the lifters new, it all comes down to the existing oil pressure not being sufficient to pressure-fill the lifters via the one small hole.
The only remedy in my opinion is to increase the pressure. Whatcha think??
Hilmar.
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

hornetball

Did you check the lifter preload?  The theory is that an unpressurized hydraulic lifter on the camshaft base circle should be ~ in the middle of its range.  A lot of things can affect this, especially with a fresh build.  You may need pushrods that are slightly different length to get geometry correct.

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Instructions/Files/Verifying%20Pushrod%20Length%20And%20Rocker%20Arm%20Geometry.pdf

BTW, hydraulic lifters can be disassembled and a machine shop can easily drill and chamfer additional holes in the body to match the originals.  I don't think that's your issue though.

Remember that oil pressure changes dramatically with oil temperature.  To match the FSM, you should be taking pressure readings with fully warmed oil -- which usually takes on the order of 15 miles of driving.

Roger Zimmermann

Quote from: Hilarius on August 11, 2019, 01:03:49 AM
The engine oil level was always up to the mark, and there is a gasket between the oil pump and the block.
Walt was not referring at the paper gasket between the pump and the block, but at the oil pick-up tube and the pump, as this is a rotating assembly. It's a rather large felt washer which is often discarded.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Daryl Chesterman

#12
This is a picture of the felt washer that Walt was referring to.  It is from a 1959 390 engine, but the same principle.  If you expand the picture, you can see the felt washer around the pickup tube, where it would be inserted into the body of the oil pump.  This is the old felt washer--the new one was thicker, and possibly would expand even more once it was thoroughly soaked in oil.

Daryl Chesterman

The Tassie Devil(le)

Whenever I increase the oil pressure of an oil pump, I stay with the original spring, and simply insert a steel washer behind the spring.

This slightly increases the pressure of the spring against the relief valve, without changing too much.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Jay Friedman

Quote from: Hilarius on August 11, 2019, 09:53:36 AM
The only remedy in my opinion is to increase the pressure. Whatcha think??

Do it and see what happens.  I think the Tassie Devil's method with washer is the best way to do it.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

Hilarius

Thanks to you all for the input.
Tomorrow, I'll check the oil pressure at the oil filter outlet on the left hand cylinder block, to make sure that the left oil gallery is not clogged. Then I'll take off the oil pan and the oil pump, look at the felt washer of the latter and increase the overflow pressure  slightly by putting a washer under the spring.
Not much hope that any of that will be successful but elimination by trial  and error seems necessary.
If not successful I'll dig into the engine, take out one of the new lifters and push rods and compare them minutely to the old ones for length and size. Rocker arms likewise according to what hornetball contributed.
After all that I'll be back here to report on what was achieved.
Thanks again.
Hilmar.
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

cadman56

Before you go into the bottom end, check to see if push rod length is correct.  If the 331 oils like the 365 one oil hole in the side of the lifter should be sufficient.
Oil gets to the rocker shaft/rockers via porting through the cylinder head up alongside one of the head bolts if the 331 oils like a 365.
Also, check to see if the push rod seat in the lifters is the same height as your old lifters.
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Brad Ipsen CLC #737

Checking the parts book there are 4 different push rods from 49 to 62.  I wonder if the engine kits being sold now get those right.
Brad Ipsen
1940 Cadillac 60S
1938 Cadillac 9039
1940 Cadillac 6267
1940 LaSalle 5227
1949 Cadillac 6237X
1940 Cadillac 60S Limo

Jay Friedman

Quote from: cadman56 on August 12, 2019, 11:20:15 AMOil gets to the rocker shaft/rockers via porting through the cylinder head up alongside one of the head bolts if the 331 oils like a 365.

A 331 gets oil to the rockers and shaft exactly like a 390. 
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

Hilarius

Problem solved!
I measured the oil pressure at the front end of the left hand oil gallery and it was OK, so no clogging there. Before trying to increase the oil pressure at the pump, I decided to take a closer look at the push rods and the rocker arms as recommended, here.
The push rods are probably OK, long or short enough, but the big surprise were the rocker arms.
When I got the engine kit, I hadn't looked at them as closely as I should have. Now a variety of differences within them unfolded.
I made up a device to imitate the rocker shaft to get things clearer, and with the rockers on it it became clear why there was a lot of clattering in the valve train.
Some of the rocker arms were shorter than others and of different size than others and two of them didn't have the spherical bore for the head of the push rod, at all. They are just defective castings with a craggy hole in it.
In the said device I measured the distances between the valve end and the bottom plate with the push rod end defined and came up with a difference of about 3/32" .
Also, you can see how some of the valve ends are shorter than others and also you can see the non-machined hole in one of the arms pictured.
Now I carefully sorted out the non fitting arms (luckily I had a few good ones left) and put things back together, started the engine and in a minute it was quiet.
Yes, I know, I should have looked at the spares more carefully, but at the time I just couldn't imagine to receive such sh... for my money, so I had just put things together.
Now I am all the wiser, won't happen again.
Thanks again to all for the input - you can imagine how relieved I am now.
Hilmar.
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P