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1965 cadillac 429 engine not priming oil on start up

Started by R.Miller, August 28, 2019, 11:25:26 AM

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R.Miller

 My 1965 Cadillac with a 429 cu.in, engine will not pick up prime on start.
We rebuilt the engine completely , primed it and ran it on the DYNO foe 1 1/2 hours everything  worked fine.  At idle we had 17 lbs psi and at 3300 RPM it read 38.9 PSI . We restarted the engine 12 times no problem , let it sit in the DYNO for 3 days and restarted it again with NO ISSUES. We then installed the engine , keeping it level the oil full with same filter undisturbed from the DYNO runs. We have no oil at the oil sending unit port at all now that its been put in the car. What could be the cause of this issue. I have 40 years experience on car engines and never seen anything like this . All clearances and end play was measured and within specs concerning the pump , part number on rebuild kit is also correct. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated . I really want to keep this car stock but I have a 650 hp Dart 350 sitting in the shop waiting for something. So far the car is completely stock and that would be a shameful thing to do.
Thank You
R.Miller   

TJ Hopland

Will it prime eventually or is it not working at all at this point?   If its dead are you sure the pump is turning?  Maybe is a drive issue?

What is the pickup tube setup like on the 429?   Any chance something could have come loose moving the engine around?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

35-709

The 429 has an external pump.  I would suggest pulling the distributor and turning the pump with a long shaft (I made my own) in a 1/2' drill motor.  Maybe once it is primed again it will be OK or at least it may point to the problem. 
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

TJ Hopland

I believe its like the Buicks where most of the pump is in the timing cover and the pump cover holds the filter and maybe the bypass valve?   If the pump cover is also what holds the filter is it possible that maybe it got banged with moving or installation and maybe cracked the cover?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Ralph Messina CLC 4937

The dyno test pressures indicate the pump clearances are within spec and it was operating correctly. I would follow Geoff’s suggestion to remove the distributor and turn the pump shaft with a drill - clock wise. If it does not turn or make rattling sounds,  something mechanical is broken or out of place. If it turns but does not self or hold prime, I would drop the pan and check the junction of the pick up pipe and the oil pump case . That junction must be secure because an air leak would interrupt the siphoning action resulting in less or no oil draw. I don’t recall whether there’s an “O” ring on that pipe.
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

bcroe

Here is how I prime those situations.  I roll up another car with fresh
oil and connect a 6 foot high pressure hose (trans pressure gauge)
between the 2 oil pressure switch ports.  Idle the other car for 30 sec
and then check the oil.  When it is down over a quart, I stop and start
starter cranking the new engine, plugs out.  Check a few times, when
the the oil levels are back to normal, you are done and the new engine
is fully lubed.  Works, no stress or danger of damage.  Bruce Roe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

#6
If you are able to get oil flow by manually turning the pump as described and it keeps price you are set if it continues to loose prime there are three things that often are the culprit.
First of all the pick up may have come loose.
Secondly the gasket between the pickup tubes and the block may be leaking
Third the timing cover or it’s gasket May not be sealing correctly. 
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Scot Minesinger

Also, the dowel pins that position the heads on block are hollow and serve as oil returns I understand, if they were clogged or replaced with solid that can be a problem.  This was retold to me by a 1966 Caddy owner who suffered oil issues.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

jerry 1261

Their is should not be a gasket on the block to pickup tube  I would take a close look at the pressure valve if stuck open would bypass oil pressure back into the  oil pump

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

With all due respects Jerry, there is a gasket that seals the pick up tube to the block.
Re reading the original post, I too would check to see that the pressure spring is not broken  or the valve stuck in the bore.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

cadillactim

Is the gasket on between the pump plate and pump housing paper thin? When I rebuilt my 429 the gasket in the kit was too thick, which increased the clearance between the gears and the plate, which resulted in no oil pressure. Got another gasket which was paper thin and that fixed that.

Tim
Tim Groves

35-709

1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

russ austin

Quote from: cadillactim on September 27, 2019, 06:08:54 PM
Is the gasket on between the pump plate and pump housing paper thin? When I rebuilt my 429 the gasket in the kit was too thick, which increased the clearance between the gears and the plate, which resulted in no oil pressure. Got another gasket which was paper thin and that fixed that.

Tim
2 different parts are being discussed here. The oil pickup tube does require a gasket, and that part is in the oil pan.   The oil pump plate does also require a gasket, but it is critical that the correct gasket is used. It does se the clearance.  This end plate is on the oil pump which is on the front engine cover.
R.Austin

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Again, as is often the case the OP has disappeared.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Big Fins

Yeah, it was fair to give him a month to at least respond.

Something may have happened in his life that we have no clue about.

But, that's the way of the world today for the most part.

I got mine...

I still like doing business the old skool way. A mans handshake or his word consummate the transaction. No matter what type of transaction it is.
Current:
1976 Eldorado Convertible in Crystal Blue FireMist with white interior and top. (Misty Blue)
1969 Fleetwood Brougham in Chalice Gold FireMist with matching interior and top. (The Old Man) SOLD!

Past and much missed:
1977 Brougham de Elegance
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1972 Fleetwood Brougham
1971 Sedan de Ville
1970 de Ville Convertible
1969 Sedan de Ville
1959 Sedan deVille

Ralph Messina CLC 4937

QuoteI still like doing business the old skool way. A mans handshake or his word consummate the transaction. No matter what type of transaction it is.

John, that's only possible if the counter-party has gray or no hair.
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado-with a new caretaker  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2018 GMC Yukon

gkhashem

Well it would be nice to know if the problem was resolved so as to help others in the future, but as already said I got mine and I would add I cannot be bothered to give some feedback or a thanks.
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

jerry 1261

the gasket on the bottom of the oil pump   at the check valve is used as a gasket be is also a shim to set end play in pump very thin

R.Miller

Thank You Everyone,
Problem solved ! I talked to the Machinist that rebuilt the engine. He put the oil in the engine all 5 quarts through the oil sending unit opening using a pressure feed tank. I don't know why but as soon as I primed it through the Distributor it pumped to 30 lbs. in less than 5 seconds. No problems since . The engine Sat for 3 weeks after the dunk run before we got it in the car. But that should not have mattered at all. Somehow this had oil pressure on the dyno and zero in the car. The only part that we removed to install the engine was the water pump and of course the carburetor. I am wondering if all this had something to do with the way the gears in the pump are cut or meshed. Never even occurred to me anyone would fill an engine with oil like this , at least an old engine . Thanks for all the helpful suggestions .

savemy67

Hello Rance,

Being a natural born skeptic, I am curious to know how your machinist maintained oil pressure on the dyno.  Was the pressure tank fill device left in place?  In other words, was the pressure fill device responsible for the pressure on the dyno, with none being supplied by the engine oil pump?

As Yul Brynner said, "'tis a puzzlement"

Looking at the design of the oiling system in the 429, I suspect that the oil filter's anti drainback valve and or the bypass valve may have prevented the filter and or pump from being primed thoroughly because the direction of the oil flow was reversed by pressurizing the oil feed through the oil pressure sending unit opening.  If the pump had no prime, and or the filter had no oil, the engine start-up in the car would have happened with air in the pump and the filter, thus no oil pressure.

You can call me a doubting Thomas, but I like to be reasonably convinced of the engineering and science behind a process before being comfortable with it.  How hard can it be to pour 4 1/2 quarts of oil down the oil fill tube, and one pint of oil into the filter?

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop