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57/58 sabres on radials

Started by Caddyrag67, October 17, 2019, 05:16:54 PM

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Caddyrag67

I have seen the other topics about running radials on the old sabres is not a good idea which i guess some have had then crack due to the flex from the radials.  my question is what if your running the 57/58 sabres which is different then the old ones in which they have a full steel drum unlike the older ones which was half and half.  will i be safe runnng radials?  i want to go with bias look radials.
Brendan Gielow
CLC Member # 31224

1952 Series 62  Convertible
1958 Eldorado Seville
1960 Coupe DeVille
1967 Coupe Deville Convertible

Rockfish39

#1
All the Kelsey-Hayes sabres '55-'58 have full steel drum. The big difference between the 41098's and the earlier 39xxxx, and 38xxxx ones is the backspacing from the mounting surface of the hub.  Running a radial tire on any of these is really no issue unless you mount a tire that is too wide for the rim. The wider tire will still mount and inflate, but the pinching effect on the tire sealing beads will cause a wider tire to bulge more in the sidewalls. That bulging presses against the outermost edge of the aluminum front which is where these tend to crack and or break.

There are many WWW tire sizes available out there, so be conservative in your size selection. Keep them narrower. You're probably not going to be breakin' them loose on the street anyways.

Rock  8)

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

I have stated this before but here it is again:  I would
not recommend running radial tires on those Saber
wheels.

Whether you have the  "Original" two piece steel wheel or
the "newer" one piece steel wheel -- they BOTH have an
aluminum outer rim. That rim is not designed to take the
increased lateral forces from the flexing of a radial tire.

I'm sure you'll hear from a few people who will state: 
"I've run radials for years on Sabers without issues".

To that I say:  Recently there was a guy that took a
header off the McKees Rocks bridge into the Ohio river
in Pittsburgh trying to kill himself and lived.  However,
the other several hundred who did that over the years
did not.

How lucky are you?

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Caddyrag67

do you run on yours and if so whats the size. im wanting to stick to a 3-4 in white wall and i know those are usually the wider ones for the bias look radials

Quote from: Rockfish39 on October 17, 2019, 06:08:53 PM
All the Kelsey-Hayes Sabres have full steel drum. The big difference between the 41098's and the earlier 39xxxx ones is the backspacing from the mounting surface of the hub.  Running a radial tire on any of these is really no issue unless you mount a tire that is too wide for the rim. The wider tire will still mount and inflate, but the pinching effect on the tire sealing beads will cause a wider tire to bulge more in the sidewalls. That bulging presses against the outermost edge of the aluminum front which is where these tend to crack and or break.

There are many WWW tire sizes available out there, so be conservative in your size selection. Keep them narrower. You're probably not going to be breakin' them loose on the street anyways.

Rock  8)
Brendan Gielow
CLC Member # 31224

1952 Series 62  Convertible
1958 Eldorado Seville
1960 Coupe DeVille
1967 Coupe Deville Convertible

Rockfish39

#4
The limitation for the K-H rims is the fact that it's a 15*5.75" rim. Most wheel shops will reference it to a 15*6
Either way, the K-H rim is NARROW.

I'm running P235 70R-15 Vogue Radial VII's on mine, and I'm not dead from them yet. But I dont go racing or off roading with my car either.  This size is about the widest tire that a K-H 41098 rim can support

In your case, if you're wanting to go with a 3" wide white >>>  Diamond Back has some nice choices in the
P215 75R-15 size . This is probably your best choice in sizing for that rim.

I still wouldn't worry about that narrow a tire, as you would need 472 in or larger engine to smoke those babies

I hope that helps! 



Caddyrag67

i agree im slow cruising this thing not taking corners at 40mph. ive seen the diamondbacks but have heard mixed things about them, ill probably go the coker version. im running willwood disc conversion on it too. so should be a nice setup
Brendan Gielow
CLC Member # 31224

1952 Series 62  Convertible
1958 Eldorado Seville
1960 Coupe DeVille
1967 Coupe Deville Convertible

35-709

1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Rockfish39

#7
Just one FRIENDLY word of caution for you Caddyrag...
                                                         
If you have not yet tried with just one sabre wheel (with no rubber on it) for fitment up against your disk brake setup, you need to.

The sabre wheel will not clear most disk brake calipers that come with these conversion kits.
Most certainly not a Wilwood or Baer setup that uses a 12", or larger rotor. That is, of course, unless there are newer brake products out there that will ...

In fact, pre 1970  GM 15" stamped steel rims won't clear the calipers either.

You can make to jump to a front disk brake setup, but it will require you to use a  15" rim from a '74-'76 Cad that was factory equipped with disk brakes to make it work. Or jump up to a 17" or even 18" rim which will solve many of those issues.

You might want to try before plunking down your hard earned cash for new cords...

Rock  8)

Caddyrag67

already fitted it fits perfect they make a bolt on kit now.
Brendan Gielow
CLC Member # 31224

1952 Series 62  Convertible
1958 Eldorado Seville
1960 Coupe DeVille
1967 Coupe Deville Convertible

Caddyrag67

#9
But also some advice, they only work on the 1957 to 1958 Sabres the earlier ones have clearance issues and you have to run a lot of spacers which I don't suggest
Brendan Gielow
CLC Member # 31224

1952 Series 62  Convertible
1958 Eldorado Seville
1960 Coupe DeVille
1967 Coupe Deville Convertible

gkhashem

Quote from: Mike Josephic  CLC #3877 on October 17, 2019, 07:09:22 PM
I have stated this before but here it is again:  I would
not recommend running radial tires on those Saber
wheels.

Whether you have the  "Original" two piece steel wheel or
the "newer" one piece steel wheel -- they BOTH have an
aluminum outer rim. That rim is not designed to take the
increased lateral forces from the flexing of a radial tire.

I'm sure you'll hear from a few people who will state: 
"I've run radials for years on Sabers without issues".

To that I say:  Recently there was a guy that took a
header off the McKees Rocks bridge into the Ohio river
in Pittsburgh trying to kill himself and lived.  However,
the other several hundred who did that over the years
did not.

How lucky are you?

Mike

Mike

Everyone is an expert. I agree with you, but the "experts" do not.

In fact, I have played Russian Roulette many times and never had a problem. So it must be a safe game!!   ::) ::) ::) ::)
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

Roger Zimmermann

Quote from: Mike Josephic  CLC #3877 on October 17, 2019, 07:09:22 PM

Whether you have the  "Original" two piece steel wheel or
the "newer" one piece steel wheel -- they BOTH have an
aluminum outer rim.
Mike, it seems that you are mixing something. 1955 Sabre wheels have a half rim made with aluminum, being part of the wheel center. The other part of the rim is steel. Later wheels have a complete steel rim which is maybe as good (or as bad) as standard wheels.
Radial tires are installed on my Brougham since 30 years or more, without issue. Brougham wheels have the same construction as the Sabre wheels
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Rockfish39

#12
Roger,
         Respectfully, How many of these wheels have you looked at or worked on?? 

"Later wheels have a complete steel rim which is maybe as good (or as bad) as standard wheels."   ???

No they don't, ALL K-H Sabres '55-58 are aluminum hub, which is the wheel center. The other part of the rim is steel. The aluminum hub is press fit into that steel drum (ring or rim, if you want to call it that) and then riveted to it.

That's not just true of the '55s, it's true for all of them. A 3/16" thick piece of aluminum (out on the furthest edge of the later ones) by itself could never take the pressure of the tire. The tire mounts and seals completely on the steel ring.
The decorative aluminum hub is what mounts that ring to the face plate of the brake drum.

The backspacing on the rim is what makes the '55-'56 rims different than the '57-'58s  The only other difference is that bright dip gold anodized on that aluminum was available in '56. "57-'58s were ALL chrome plated



 

Roger Zimmermann

Probably we don't use the same word to describe the wheels. If I'm writing "rim" that's the "steel drum" as you are calling it. Have a look at one of the Sabre wheels I restored years ago. The steel rim was removed because aluminum and steel cannot be chromed together; as least it's what I was told.
So I have the impression I know what I'm writing about.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Caddyrag67

i think were veering away from the original question but i dont think you guys are talking about the same thing. the early sabres were half steel drum and half aluminum drum riveted together which i could see an issue running radials on. the later sabres are a full steel drum with a aluminum center hub rjveted to it. so i dont see that much of an issue with the radials as long as there not to wide of a tire.  look at the 2 photos that are attached showing earlier vs. later style.
Brendan Gielow
CLC Member # 31224

1952 Series 62  Convertible
1958 Eldorado Seville
1960 Coupe DeVille
1967 Coupe Deville Convertible

Roger Zimmermann

Thanks for the pictures, they are showing the situation much better than I could to with my limited English!
If the steel drum or rim has the same thickness as the standard wheels, I see no problem using radial tires, even if those wheels are not designed for modern tires.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Rockfish39

#16
Clearly, I misunderstood what you were trying to say Roger. So sorry for causing the confusion.
My fault...