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Recommendations for 1946 346 engine rebuild/repair

Started by Stevison, October 06, 2019, 02:50:24 PM

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Stevison

Folks, I am considering having this engine rebuilt and would appreciate the recommendations any of you may have for top-notch engine repair/rebuilders at something approaching a reasonable price.I get woozy when I hear prices north of 7K! My plan would be to have a local shop remove the engine and ship it where needed. Also, I would appreciate knowing of any shops who are willing to undertake repairs to an engine of this type may not necessitate a rebuild. I am located in the Midwest and thank all of you in advance for helping out and un-skilled newbie! Thanks much!

carlhungness

       I went through this same kind of anxiety with my Vincent motorcycle which has a twin cylinder engine. After it was all said and done and I had spent $7,000 for a $3,500 job I decided I know more than I am giving myself credit for. I don't particularly want to "split the cases" and re-do the crankshaft, but can handle all else with the assistance of  quality machine shop.
      I think that's the same scenario you should tell yourself. First, taking the engine out is a pretty basic task you should be able to handle (if you're not handicapped).
       Dis-assembly of the engine itself can be handled by a competent 12 year old and reading what it needs can be done by any journeyman mechanic who has has experience in rebuilding any engine.
        I don't see why you can't take the plot apart, have the block magnafluxed and then start the rebuilding process locally. At worst the crank will have to be turned a few thousandths, someone will have to do a valve job on it. It may have to be bored to remove a ridge in the cylinders, something any competent mechanic can show you.
       Once the crank, valves and cylinders are ready, all work that can be jobbed out by anyone who rebuilds Chevrolet V-8's, you're into the re-assembly stage and it sure is not an intellectually challenged proposition to accomplish bolting this most basic power-plant back together.
       If you just want to wash your hands of the project and let someone else do it, you're going to pay through the nose as it were.
        If you scout around for any good local racer or hot rodder who has some engine building experience you'll save thousands and have a good time doing it. Shop rates are just too sky high
for the average income earner to afford them, so the more you know about your product the greater your chances of success. And in this case, your product, a decades old Plain Jane design is just not complex at all.
        While you're at it, research what it takes to fix the pesky rear main leak.

z3skybolt

#2
Two years ago.....

I had my 346 engine overhauled.  Cost me $1,300.00 to have it removed and crated. $900.00 to have it shipped to the shop.  $12,000.00 and ten month wait for the overhaul.  $900.00 to have it shipped back.  $1,500.00 to have it reinstalled.  Had issues with the rebuild.  Spent $1,100.00 to transport the car, engine installed back to the engine shop and three nights in hotels while I waited.  Another $960.00 for new lifters/gaskets from Terill Machine, which should have been purchased and installed in the first place.  $1,800.00 to have the heads pulled and each new valve lifter installed and adjusted properly as the original builder couldn't manage to do it right.

Damned expensive if one cannot do much of the labor themselves, such as at least removing/ reinstalling/transporting the engine.  Good luck with your effort. I made a lot of bad choices and paid dearly for them.

But if you can get a quality overhaul, everything done right for less than $10,000.00... consider yourself fortunate. Remember there are "overhauls" and there are first rate rebuilds Sorry for the HORROR STORY!  But it is true.

And by the way.....my builder was a highly regarded racing engine, expert, builder with his own machine shop....had even helped his dad do some Cadillac Flatheads years ago.  But he was in over his head and lost with my engine. Don't for one moment think that the guy who does common modern engines should mess with these old Flatheads.

Bob R.
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

35-709

"Don't for one moment think that the guy who does common modern engines should mess with these old Flatheads."

Agree 100%. 
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Bobby B

Quote from: carlhungness on October 06, 2019, 05:34:43 PM
       
       Dis-assembly of the engine itself can be handled by a competent 12 year old and reading what it needs can be done by any journeyman mechanic who has has experience in rebuilding any engine.
You're kidding me, Right?
       
Quote from: carlhungness on October 06, 2019, 05:34:43 PM
        If you scout around for any good local racer or hot rodder who has some engine building experience you'll save thousands and have a good time doing it. And in this case, your product, a decades old Plain Jane design is just not complex at all.
 
Carl,
  It's not such an easy job for someone who's not mechanically inclined or doesn't have any experience with Flatheads. Ford and Cadillac aren't the same engine. Forget about your mechanical ability for a second and the key here is to know the in's and out's of this particular engine, it's quirks, and most importantly what to look for when disassembling, along with having discussed with the owner what the problems were and why they felt a rebuild was needed. You just don't go tearing into an engine without knowing what you're looking for as you're tearing it down. Find me a 12 year old with 40+ years experience.......
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

chrisntam

Ain't owning an old car fun?

In '14, I spent just under $10k getting my 472 rebuilt by a reputable 472/500 specialist in California.  It had relatively minor issues upon its return, but issues none the less.  new rods, pistons, cam, rocker shafts, bored, balanced, minor porting of the heads, etc.

I pulled it, drove it to CA, guy rebuilt it, he shipped it back, I installed it and got it running.

Maybe look in Hemmings for a lead on a rebuilder and check their recent references!

Best of luck, let us know how it's going!

chris.
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

harry s

Quote from: 35-709 on October 06, 2019, 10:04:07 PM
"Don't for one moment think that the guy who does common modern engines should mess with these old Flatheads."

Agree 100%.
     Case in point. A friend of mine had his '41 engine rebuilt by a local (to him) second generation, highly recommended machine shop. Every menu item was done. The finished engine was a thing of beauty. Before installing we placed it one an engine stand readied for starting to include pre oiling lower and top end, coolant, etc. When the engine fired it sounded like a thrashing machine. Oil pressure check, excellent. The noise was coming from the lifters. As it turns out the shop was unfamiliar with the critical tolerance from the cam heel to the valve stem. Fortunately they corrected their mistake at no cost. As Bobby points out the rebuilder must be familiar with the specific engine they are working on. The fact that the poster is asking for advice tells me he is being prudent and either doesn't have the knowledge or experience or the time commitment for the job but wants to do it right.
     I would shop the local area for shops and also check with owners of similiar cars for a specifically qualified shop. Bob R your info is most helpful given the costs for each step. Glad your are through the process and able to enjoy your LaSalle.
     If any of you are at Hershey stop by and see me at C3A-10 Wed thru Fri.
Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

z3skybolt

Thanks Harry,

I've driven the LaSalle 6,000+ miles in the past two years since the overhaul was completed. It runs quietly, smoothly and powerfully. The bug a boo which required more time and expense after the engine overhaul was the valve adjustments, just as in your example. Despite telling the mechanic numerous times about the importance and necessity.....his last comment to me was....."I've set them perfectly, don't ask me about it again"! 

When they were measured by someone who actually respected the process all the valves were too long by from 43 to 54 thousandths.

Had everything been done correctly from the beginning and at a more competitive price..... given the necessity of having professionals remove/reinstall and ship the engine.... It probably still could not have been done for less than $14,000.00.

For what is is worth: everything in my engine is new except the crank and cam which had accumulated only 4,000 miles prior to the overhaul.

Bob R.
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Chris Davis

I don't have any specific suggestions on who or where but can flatly state you do not want to use an unnamed shop in eastern Ohio that now focuses on Mopar engines and may or may not still handle flathead V8s.

My engine came back after being run on the test stand for several hours after which I put it into storage while focusing on other restoration matters.  All seemed good until I later inspected the oil pan I found metal grit. In turn I pulled and disassembled the engine (again) to find ruined bearings, and some other damage.  Fortunately the cam shaft and crank were not ruined.  Too early to determine if the valves are correct.


Chris Davis

Repeat

costly bad experience with unnamed rebuilder in eastern Ohio in the city of Akron

LaSalle5019

I just had my 1939 LaSalle engine rebuilt. I purchased a deluxe rebuild kit (bearings, lifters-plungers, valve springs, valves, valve guides, camshaft, timing chain/sprockets, pistons, pins, rings, gasket set, oil pump kit, freeze plugs, etc.). You can buy from Terrill, Egge, CaddyDaddy, eBay.  That will run you about $2000. 

I had a lot of confidence with my local machine shop - first hand knowledge and other peoples input, but they never did a flathead caddy engine before.  After reading all the posts about needing to only go to a shop experienced with the Cadillac flathead, I was a bit concerned but thought about this.  It isn't rocket science - just need an experience engine rebuilder with attention to detail and info on the Cadillac nuances.  This would include paying articular attention to ensure no cracks in the block. Also, the previously mentioned valve train geometry - basically setting the valve in the center of the hydraulic lifter travel, which isn't any different than how you typically set up other engines but a different procedure to get there. Piston orientation and others. I put together a guide, merging of Walt Brewer’s Step by Step Guide, the Tank Service Manuals and tips form the CLC Forum.  If anyone wants a copy send me a note. I used Reichert Engines in Owosso, MI.  They charged me $2923 to do all the disassembly, cleaning, machining and rebuild work - I chose to put on the heads and intake/exhaust though.  I also removed and installed the engine assembly.

My bronze idler gear was very worn so I coughed up another $1020 to Headquarters Machine and Restoration (New Hope, MN) for their bronze gear replacement kit which consists of rebushing your distributor support housing and replacing the shaft, a new two piece drive shaft design from the pump, new distributor drive gear, new polymer idler gear (instead of bronze) and new rebuild of your oil pump with the correct helical gears instead of the straight cut deign you get in the normal rebuild kits.  If you want to know why this is all important go to their website and read - not cheap but done right (https://hq-ma.com/cadillac-and-lasalle-bronze-gears/).

Lastly, I bought engine paint from Bill Hirsch 2quarts @$40 each - it takes a lot of paint - engine trans, bell housing, misc. and had my local shop spray it $200.

All told it ran $6223 for a complete rebuild and paint.  If you want shiny exhaust manifolds add in another $700 or so for porcelain.

Runs like a fine time piece.