Driving, a classic or whatever.

Started by Cadman-iac, January 12, 2020, 01:15:10 PM

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cadillac ken

Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 13, 2020, 09:13:30 AM
Yes, its supposed to be about Cadillacs. I guess my point  on all this was about the chances of losing your classic vehicle or having it damaged by someone who wasn't paying attention, and how today's cars just make the situation worse by allowing them to not pay attention.  Don't worry,  your car will save you!
I suppose too, what I was asking without actually saying it is,  how many people have had a classic damaged or totalled by someone's careless mistake?

About 17 years ago I had a collectible "totaled out" due to a sixteen year old driver.  It was simply a matter of no experience and not using common sense.  Ran a traffic light because the guy ahead of her did and she thought if he can make it so can I.  She did not.

Car was restored by my sweat and money.  It took literally years to complete it.  It had less than 1500 miles on the restoration.  It sold for salvage and parts.  AND my insurance company dragged their feet and fought me the whole way for just over a year.

So yes, distracted, un-engaged, and inexperienced drivers have been around for some time.  It's simply a matter of it's getting worse every year.  Drive defensively has never been more of a necessity.

Cadman-iac

Quote from: cadillac ken on January 13, 2020, 12:12:22 PM
About 17 years ago I had a collectible "totaled out" due to a sixteen year old driver.  It was simply a matter of no experience and not using common sense.  Ran a traffic light because the guy ahead of her did and she thought if he can make it so can I.  She did not.

Car was restored by my sweat and money.  It took literally years to complete it.  It had less than 1500 miles on the restoration.  It sold for salvage and parts.  AND my insurance company dragged their feet and fought me the whole way for just over a year.

So yes, distracted, un-engaged, and inexperienced drivers have been around for some time.  It's simply a matter of it's getting worse every year.  Drive defensively has never been more of a necessity.

I guess this is my fear too. I'll  be lucky to get this car done in another 2 or 3 years, IF I'm lucky.
Because of my age too, not that I'm ancient yet, but I want to drive it on a  regular basis, or even just once before I die. Not necessarily as a daily driver,  but even at that, it makes you apprehensive about even taking it out at all.
Just want to enjoy it before it's too late,  for one reason or another.
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

jdemerson

Rick's post is a good one that has generated an interesting variety of perspectives. For me, Mr. Langley's posts, especially this one, brings back a dose of realism and perspective to the discussion:

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on January 12, 2020, 02:14:39 PM
It’s long been pretty common for classic car enthusiast to dislike modern cars/features. Your opinions, or similar, are not unique to today and have been held by classic car enthusiasts for ages.

For example, the 1950s era cars you long for were disliked by classic car enthusiasts of that time.  Below are a few quotes from classic car club members in an article ("Fast Growing Club of Ancient Auto Owners Look on New Cars With Disdain") from 1955.

On why there's a growing interest in classic cars....."People's revolt against standardized living, against all cars looking alike, as they do now; it's a return to individuality."

On why club members prefer classic cars over new....."[Modern cars are] too heavy, gross of line; squashy on the curves, tires squeal; don't have the roadability and durability of the classic, don't have the workmanship."

More on why club members prefer classics....."Modern cars are too full of gadgets, too easy to operate.  It's like sitting in a living room and pushing a button.  We like some movement.  We like the gear shift on the gear box, like the feel of shifting the gears, when you get to know your own transmission."

Not everyone agreed with these opinions back then just as not everyone agrees with similar opinions today.  Some people only like new cars, some only like older cars, some like both and some don't like cars at all.  That's the way it's been and probably always will be.


I am reminded of a conversation around the kitchen table when I was a very young kid. My mother and her sister were having an animated conversation about all the negatives ascribed to the young generation. My father finally interjected, calmly and with a huge twinkle in his eye, "Yes, the whole world has gone to hell in a hand basket."  That was in the late 1950s at about the time that Edsel was publishing sales materials comparing itself (favorably) to Cadillac.

Although I share some of the misgivings expressed in the posts above, I also think that Mr. Langley does a service to bring some balance and perspective to the conversation. Over the past year, I saw a lot of very enthusiastic and creative young people who brought their cars to several car shows. And I suspect that won't end even as electric cars gain some market share. For the time being, electric cars (and teenagers with their cell phones) have a very long way to go to put the old-car hobby out of business. I vote for realism, accompanied by a dose of optimism...

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac sedan 6219X
John Emerson
Middlebury, Vermont
CLC member #26790
1952 Series 6219X
http://bit.ly/21AGnvn

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: wrench on January 13, 2020, 11:24:59 AM
Lol

Again, the doom and gloom expressed by older generations about younger generations and/or the future of society has been repeated for ages.  Thankfully in the past, now, and in the future the younger generations of the time tend to win out over the older generations and life and society evolves.  It's certainly never perfect or without problems, and never will be.

As far as some of your comments about cars and the future of the hobby, people have been predicting the end of the car hobby for decades.   Also, some cities and states had been looking to ban not just old cars but gas-powered new cars going back to at least the 1960s.  Additionally, self-driving cars have been on the auto industry's and society's radar for decades too but I don't think their use will be as widespread as some were hoping for or predicting even 60+ years ago.  Also back in the 1950s, auto industry executives were even predicting private flying cars and space travel cars would be the focus within 50 years but all of the "Explorers", "Navigators", "Expeditions" and the like being sold are still firmly planted on earth.

Who knows exactly what the future will bring but I think too many of the past older generations predicting doom and gloom were wrong and worried or griped about some things unnecessarily.   I guess it will always be this way.  C'est la vie.

Cadman-iac

#24
Last two posts points well taken, and many others as well. It may be that I'm looking for a glimmer of hope in getting my car done before I am either too old or (God forbid), I  die first. 
Sometimes it seems like I'm never gonna get it done.  It's that same old dance,  you know the one that goes " two steps forward and one step back ". In my case it feels like one  forward and two back.
Anyway,  I realize we're not going to solve any of life's problems with our phones or computers.  Just venting and lamenting the old days.

EDIT:  I just realized why I liked the old days,  I was young !!!
You know, "Rebel without a clue!!"


Sometimes I feel like I'm going through life as Lt. Dan, and then I'm reminded of the immortal words of Forest Gump, " Life is like a box of chocolate,  you never know what you're gonna get!".
Rick

Here's to better times!
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Anderson

I think it's rare for me to take a glass half full side of just about anything, but I think there are two backdoors on the classic car front:
-First, banning older cars would probably trigger a serious (and quite possibly well-funded) legal fight over it qualifying as a "taking".
-Second, if a few states do this I suspect there will be other states that start getting froggy about issuing out-of-state registrations to cars at an added cost.  Taking a hypothetical that there are, say, 10m "classic" cars in the US (that is, everything from 1989 on back), if a state (I'll pick on Delaware since Delaware likes to do crazy things to "take advantage of" everyone else, but South Dakota is another easy candidate) turned around and said "We'll issue a no-questions-asked registration and plates for $100/yr" and half of classic car owners took them up on it, that's half a billion dollars a year into the budget of a small state.  The resulting legal furball on "You're stealing our registrations" versus "You weren't willing to register them anyway" won't be pretty, either, but see the first point (about potentially well-funded legal fights).

wrench

Well, as the current meme goes:

Ok, boomer.
1951 Series 62 Sedan
1969 Eldorado
1970 Eldorado (Triple Black w/power roof)
1958 Apache 3/4 ton 4x4
2005 F250
2014 FLHP
2014 SRX

Anderson

Hey, don't forget...I'm not even 33 yet.

Scot Minesinger

Well my kids are 24, 22 and 20 and they are good drivers, paying attention, not relying on sensors (back up) entirely but using their eyes instead.  They all love my old Cadillacs, but they recognize that there is a lot of work in making them mechanically sound.  I tell my kids don't buy a classic car until your youngest is in first grade and you have savings for their college.  So I tell the people of my generation (60 or so) if you don't like the way young people blame your generation - you taught them.  My two oldest kids drive American cars (they are working and paying taxes).  I sent my youngest to performance driving school where she learned how to turn out of a skid and other manuevers the cops taught.

And there are plenty of TERRIBLE drivers our age, driving 45 in the left lane of the highway, 10 mph under on two lane roads, hesitating when a short green light finally turns - letting only two turn left instead of six cars, and etc.

You have to drive super defensively while not slowing traffic.  In Washington DC on a super nice spring day 75'F sunny no humidity, I was driving my family home for the day on 14th street S going 35mph headed toward the green light - intending to go straight thru the intersection.  A van was at the intersection waiting for the green arrow to turn left and a car was to my right traveling about same speed.  I saw a bike rider looking like he was going to pass in front of the van and not stop to allow me the right of way.  I had my foot ready over the brake pedal just in case - and yes jammed on the brakes and avoiding hitting him.  He looked emberressed and admitted his error, then I drove off.  If I had hit him, a ticket would probably not have been issued to me.  Better to just be careful and anticipate.  No stupid sensor could have avoided that.

Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

64\/54Cadillacking

#29
I truly wonder what are the main reasons behind democratic politicians wanting to ban everything in the name of the environment? I mean why? Supposedly it’s to protect us from green house gasses, but we all know that’s a bunch of BS. Especially since new vehicles today barely even pollute. Or wanting to ban cars altogether. It’s just craziness!!

The majority of you that don’t live on the coasts, be it the West or Eastcoast, shouldn’t have to worry much, it’s classic Caddy owners such as myself that live in CA that really have to worry about certain old cars being completely banned and or outlawed from existence.

One thing that I’ve noticed in the last couple of years is the decline of classic cars on the road. I rarely see a vintage Cadillac, a Chevy, a Mopar or whatever. What’s still popular around here are old trucks from the 80’s on down and Mustangs of all years.

But not much else in between. San Diego has a very small collection of classic car enthusiasts, unlike up in the L.A. are where there’s a heavy presence of oldies but goodies everywhere you go!! Even custom plating shops, upholstery work, body shops, and the General classic car repair business is still massive in L.A. while down here in SD, they’re just not many trustworthy  places anymore for enthusiast to take their vintage Caddy’s or any classic to get work down on them. The shops that are still around are always so far away.

I’ll keep driving my 64 until it’s banned, but I’m not going to wait until that day comes because hopefully I’ll be another state by then. California used to be a wonderful state, but it’s progressive policies, extremely high taxes, insanely high cost of living,  state/local corruption, rampant homelessness in every city you go too has ruined this state and has caused a mass exodus of residents leaving altogether because they are tired of what’s going on here and have had enough of CA regressive policies.
1964 Sedan Deville (Own)
1987 Brougham D’Elegance (Sold)
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1994 Fleetwood Bro (Sold)
1972 Sedan Deville (Sold)
1968 Coupe Deville (Sold)
1978 Lincoln Continental (Own)
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier (Own)

cadillac ken

I don't really think Democrats want to ban everything in the name of the environment.  I think they just want some sort of an effort to be made.

It just sounds like the alarmist that constantly claim that the Democrats want to "take my guns" but seem OK with the daily mass shootings in this country.

I'm all for the progress of alternate fuel cars.  This idea that all internal combustion engines will be banned or taken off of the road is to me nonsense.  The industries that support the current internal combustion engine (parts, aftermarket parts, performance parts-- think SEMA), and of course, Big Oil are not going to roll over too easily when such legislation can effect their yearly earnings and profits.

I love my old cars. But I think the bigger issue is will the next generation and the next feel the same. It has already been noted that the younger folks are not so interested in obtaining their driving license at 16 years old.  We have seen and heard how they don't really seem too interested in driving anything and they seem fine with an Uber. 

I don't believe the sky is falling.  But I do believe progress is coming whether we like it, agree with it, or not, as well as the evolving of the idea of driving to simply get from point A to point B as the only thing that matters. Not the style in which you get there.

Bob Kielar

Technology saves lives period.

Regards,

Bob Kielar
Keep Cruzin
1955 Cadillac Fleetwood

Cadman-iac

Quote from: Bob Kielar on January 14, 2020, 09:05:03 AM
Technology saves lives period.

Regards,

Bob Kielar

This is very true Bob, very true.  One point I was making,  or I guess my main gripe is, that the technology is making people think that they no longer need to pay attention because the car will stop or swerve or speed up, whatever on it's own, and all will be fine. It's not!

What really gets me is how the manufacturers are promoting the new tech. The worst one is the datsun (pardon me!), nissan commercial where they show the driver and all the passengers watching the pedestrians along the street. I can see perhaps glance by the driver, but they are staring.
Then the vehicle suddenly stops,  all while the driver is staring at the sidewalk, then she casually looks to see why, and they don't even seem to be surprised.
Then after that the driver attempts a lane change, WITHOUT LOOKING, right into the path of a bus. The vehicle corrects for her, but DAAAMN!!. If the bus driver hadn't swerved out of the way there would have been an accident,  despite the technology in the  datsun.

There's no substitute for a good driver, either by experience or training, and preferably both.

Just my observation.
Rick
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Anderson

I think LA is probably supported by the film industry (witness Tarantino renting 2000 cars for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and virtually any other period-piece show/movie generating income on that front), and they might well scream over an attempt at a ban in CA because of those effects (there still being limits to what you can or want to do on a green screen).  Now, pushing folks to "antique plate" restrictions is probably more viable ("Drive whatever the heck you want to on Sundays but you have to have something else to drive on weekdays") from a whole host of perspectives.

TBH, I think the push hasn't so much been "just" the environment.  I think it's also something the auto industry would like insofar as it would force auto sales of whatever garbage they're selling in a given year.  Don't forget that the surge in longer-term car reliability from foreign cars (it isn't exactly hard to get 250-300k miles out of some brands if you keep up the maintenance and don't get into a crash, and I think the average driver does about 12,500/yr...taken to an extreme that would push car turnover down to about 5%/yr) presents its own issues*.  It doesn't hurt that a lot of the "older" cars at issue (we're now talking 1990s models) come from fleets large enough to support aftermarket part supply chains and aren't overly complicated (I suspect that some part of the trouble with aftermarket support for newer cars is that, for example, in 2020 Cadillac has seven models for sale and those need to cover something like...I think 175k cars/yr at this point in the US; in the 1970s, they were selling more Devilles alone every year and the skill sets needed to make aftermarket parts didn't present nearly the same hurdles).

As an example, by the way, take Cash for Clunkers: If the sole objective had been environmental, you would structure that program so that it applied to any vehicle sale that represented a mileage "gain" of X (new or used).  However, I have always taken that the main reason for the program was to prop up an auto industry that was pretty clearly up the infamous creek at that point (GM and Chrysler were in bankruptcy at that point, for example).  So if such a push comes, it's going to be car companies trying to force sales that brings it about that likely make it happen.

(FWIW, I tend to think we're at least 20-30 years off of "trouble finding fuel".  Even an aggressive, legislatively-backed push to electric cars or something else would still have at LEAST a 5-10 year lag on the industry side and another 10-15 year lag on the consumer side, and I don't see such a push taking hold in the US on the scale it would need to.)

*Anecdotal point: Despite Mercedes having US sales in the 1980s that would be seen as abysmal by most automakers today, it is quite easy to find mechanic support for a Mercedes of that vintage (or even older), and those cars tend to be good for the high end of that range...and further if you're willing to overhaul a lot of the non-engine stuff every few decades.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

Bob,
Technology, properly applied, saves lives.  Technology, poorly applied as a substitute for training, is a stickier point.  I think the concern a lot of us are expressing is that while in a vacuum technology would be a relative life-saver, there's the risk of getting to a point where many drivers don't know how to react if/when there's a major sensor failure or something like that (if the system will even let them).  It may be all well and good to have the computer do the driving most of the time, but let's not forget that the vast majority of fatalities in Boeing aircraft in the last few years have been due to the MAX fiasco (and the remainder...well, maintenance and so on come up there, especially since unlike cars, there's not exactly an "easy ditch" option if your engine dies on a plane versus being able to pull onto the shoulder).

Cadman-iac

Once again more excellent points. One problem with technology that has been in the news recently involved vehicles braking for no apparent reason. Some of the owners experiencing this problem said they were afraid to drive the vehicle after that happened.
And you're right about newer/younger, or less experienced drivers who would have no idea what to do if their "wonder car" malfunctions. A point I've been trying to make.
It's really scary to think about.

Anyway,  I've been looking at this from just my perspective.  It's been good to hear from others with a different take on it.
The main thing for me was/is the reassurance that I may still be able to drive my old car before I die. It gives me hope to carry on.

Many thanks to all who posted their thoughts on here and who've let me know I'm not alone in my thinking.

To all a good day!
Rick
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 14, 2020, 01:18:03 PM
And you're right about newer/younger, or less experienced drivers who would have no idea what to do if their "wonder car" malfunctions. A point I've been trying to make.
It's really scary to think about.

You shouldn't let it scare you any more today than 20, 40, 60+ years ago.  I think some things get overblown or skewed especially these days with 24 hour news channels, the internet, social media, and a general overexposure to information.  The reality is that teen/young drivers have been viewed as "menaces of the highways" for a very long time.  Things like emotional immaturity, lack of experience, and even parents setting poor examples by their own reckless driving habits were blamed for teen driving/accident issues back in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, for example.  The same types of fears/concerns you have today were held by adults when you were a teen driver and when everyone else here were teen drivers.   Probably wasn't worth worrying too much about then and perhaps even less so today.

cadillac ken

Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 14, 2020, 10:16:27 AM
This is very true Bob, very true.  One point I was making,  or I guess my main gripe is, that the technology is making people think that they no longer need to pay attention because the car will stop or swerve or speed up, whatever on it's own, and all will be fine. It's not!

What really gets me is how the manufacturers are promoting the new tech. The worst one is the datsun (pardon me!), nissan commercial where they show the driver and all the passengers watching the pedestrians along the street. I can see perhaps glance by the driver, but they are staring.
Then the vehicle suddenly stops,  all while the driver is staring at the sidewalk, then she casually looks to see why, and they don't even seem to be surprised.
Then after that the driver attempts a lane change, WITHOUT LOOKING, right into the path of a bus. The vehicle corrects for her, but DAAAMN!!. If the bus driver hadn't swerved out of the way there would have been an accident,  despite the technology in the  datsun.

There's no substitute for a good driver, either by experience or training, and preferably both.

Just my observation.
Rick

Absolutely spot on.  Well said.  My concern as well. 
It's one thing to utilize tech to avoid and accident (think ABS) and quite another to simply promote the idea that a driver can simply not care-- as the  driver --to be a huge part of that "avoidance" and completely rely on that tech. 

Tech fails. If only I had a dollar for every time my PC "crashed"

Bobby B

Quote from: Bob Kielar on January 14, 2020, 09:05:03 AM
Technology saves lives period.

But it doesn't Fix Stupid.....
                     Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Cadman-iac

#38
Quote from: Bobby B on January 14, 2020, 08:39:14 PM
But it doesn't Fix Stupid.....
                     Bobby
Ron White!

  HA HA!! OH HOW TRUE!!!

What's the other comedian's saying? "Here's your sign!!!"
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

dochawk

Quote from: wrench on January 13, 2020, 06:49:38 PM
Well, as the current meme goes:

Ok, boomer.

Yes, snowflake?

;D

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on January 14, 2020, 03:48:09 PM
The reality is that teen/young drivers have been viewed as "menaces of the highways" for a very long time. 

About 15 years ago, Nevada made changes requiring 50 hours behind the wheel in a log signed by parents, and issued a graduated license over a period of months (initially only family and nighttime limits, etc;).

Our new drive accident rate dropped by something insane like two thirds . . .

.

And as for the underlying issue of declining skills and standards . . . instead of quoting Cicero or Socrates, I'll note that the Nevada DMV dropped the parallel parking test a week or two ago.

Now, that's not a big change, given that the "space" you had to park in was *so* big (something like 35x12 feet!) that there was no reason to back into it in the first place, other than that it was a driving test, but still . . .

[sidenote, per Cadillac:  when my oldest went in for her test, which took an appointment a month in advance, they tried to turn her away, claiming that she didn't have enough hours--she had under 40 on that list during the day.  I asked for a manager, and got the same nonsense.   I pulled out a laptop with an early cellular modem back at the van, brought up there statute, and, sure enough, "at least" ten at night, not "exactly" 10 of the 50.  I went back in, made another fuss, and by the time they were done, the Director of the DMV was on the line.  They grudgingly let her take it . . . it was only as they walked to the car that it occurred to me that there were only two ways it could go:  extremely harsh and vindictive, or rushing it through to get rid of me.  . . . they didn't even give her the parallel parking test! . . . and what does this have to do with Cadillacs? It's that I'm racking my brain to figure out why we were in my wife's van instead of the '93 Eldorado ETC that I'd picked up for her to drive . . . maybe that she had so many more hours in it . . .)
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)