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New member in need of a little advice.

Started by Anthony A, January 17, 2020, 10:51:50 AM

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Anthony A

Hello all. Last year my father in-law passed away and left my wife his 1973 Eldorado Pace Car. We didn’t know much about it. After doing some research I found that the car was not only one of the 53 cars at the race on that day, but the car is in fact #43 that was awarded to race winner Gordon Johncock. He owned the car for its first 32 years. I have verified this with several sources including the Mr Tim Pawl and the Johncock family.
So my question is this... we have decided to sell the car. It has been very difficult to pin down a value. Just 45k miles. It is all original inside and out. It was involved in an accident and repaired during Mr Johncock’s ownership with an interesting story that imo adds to the cars history.
EDIT......Car is in condition 4-3.5 on the collector scale of 6-1....EDIT
So it’s not a show car per say. I’ve been told anywhere from $20k to 35k from authorities on this type of car.... to be honest it’s not about the money. But I want to establish a fair number. I know this forum is a wealth of knowledge on this type car. Any help would be appreciated!

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

In condition 3 and 2, OCPG lists values of $14,850 and $23,100 respectively for 1973 Eldorado convertible IPC edition which is only slightly higher than the values of the regular Eldorado convertible.

Here's one that sold at Mecum in 2016 for $10,000. Listed as a "replica" Pace Car but again there's not a significant price difference between regular '73 Eldorado and Pace Car version. Condition is what counts. 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0116-243605/1973-cadillac-eldorado-convertible/



A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Big Apple Caddy

Most of the 1973 Eldo Indy Pace cars that have come up for sale seem to be the less rare (513 made) "replica" cars.

However, one of the rarer track/festival cars (#18 of 53) sold at Mecum for $22,500 but that was ten years ago and it had gone through a ground up restoration.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0110-90007/1973-cadillac-eldorado-pace-car/

It didn't have the Gordon Johncock ownership connection like yours, which should bring some sort of premium.

Anthony A

#3
I’ve seen some of those. I was told car itself might be worth 18k in its condition as a festival car, but the Johncock history is worth that again or more. Again, this is what I was told by a few sources.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: Anthony A on January 17, 2020, 01:35:17 PM
... but the Johncock history is worth that again or more. Again, this is what I was told by a few sources.

I would be very skeptical of that claim. May double the value of a car owned by Johnny Cash but I highly doubt the same would hold for a relatively obscure name by comparison. 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

76eldo

Where are you located ?
Please send some additional photos to me.

Rachlin@comcast.net.

I’m a serious buyer.
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: Anthony A on January 17, 2020, 01:35:17 PM
I’ve seen some of those. I was told car itself might be worth 18k in its condition as a festival car, but the Johncock history is worth that again or more. Again, this is what I was told by a few sources.

Did your father-in-law buy this car through an auction?  Do you know what he paid for it?  That might help determine what kind of premium the car's history could add.  Sometimes celebrity ownership or unique history can add a decent amount, sometimes not so much.  Level of premium can also depend on how far removed (years and/or number of subsequent owners) from celebrity ownership it is.

TJ Hopland

The accident is my biggest area of concern.   What area of the car and how bad was the damage?  And do you know when that happened?   

The 2.5 because its an original car is likely better than being a 2.5 because its an aged or not very good restoration.   I think in a lot of cases someone would rather have an original car to restore than something that has been worked on before.  That is also where my concern about the accident comes in.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Anthony A

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on January 17, 2020, 03:19:59 PM
Did your father-in-law buy this car through an auction?  Do you know what he paid for it?  That might help determine what kind of premium the car's history could add.  Sometimes celebrity ownership or unique history can add a decent amount, sometimes not so much.  Level of premium can also depend on how far removed (years and/or number of subsequent owners) from celebrity ownership it is.
I believe he paid $24k four years ago.

Anthony A

#9
Quote from: TJ Hopland on January 17, 2020, 03:27:19 PM
The accident is my biggest area of concern.   What area of the car and how bad was the damage?  And do you know when that happened?   

The 2.5 because its an original car is likely better than being a 2.5 because its an aged or not very good restoration.   I think in a lot of cases someone would rather have an original car to restore than something that has been worked on before.  That is also where my concern about the accident comes in.   

The damage happened and was all repaired in the late 70s or 80s. The car is pretty much all original. Also after looking up Collector car valuation the car is a 4-3.5 on the 6-1 scale. 1 being mint and 6 a parts car. But it is original. Paint is verified all original lacquer. EDIT... Obviously with exception of the repaired panels....EDIT

cadillacmike68

The paint can't be "all original lacquer" if part of it was repainted because of an accident.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

INTMD8

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on January 17, 2020, 02:15:33 PM
I would be very skeptical of that claim. May double the value of a car owned by Johnny Cash but I highly doubt the same would hold for a relatively obscure name by comparison.

Yes, an odd scenario in my opinion.

Winning race driver owning a performance oriented car would seem to be more congruent with elevating value. 

Race driver owning a 73 Eldo Vert? I don't know.

I think if you're going after that angle to add value some period photos would be a big help.

If the accident and repair is an interesting story I would say better to include it here rather than be evasive.


cadillacmike68

Any buyer would want to know about the accident and repairs.

The two phrases:
"It is all original inside and out"
and:
"It was involved in an accident and repaired..."

Are mutually exclusive terms.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Anthony A

#13
Ok guys... I wasn’t trying to miss lead anyone. I brought up the accident right off. The car was in what was described to me as a minor accident that required the right front fender and door be repainted. It happened early in the cars life. The rest of the car is the original lacquer paint.

As far as the value being much higher due to the Johncock ownership, that’s what I was told. I honestly didn’t know a thing about this cars history before my father in-law passed. I knew it was a race day Pace Car, but nothing about Mr Johncock’s ownership. I was able to search out that information, which was actually kinda fun.

Again, I am just trying to establish an idea of value. I’m not trying to suggest it’s value. I realize in mint condition the car would be worth great money. In its current condition not so much. If it’s 15k fine... 25k great.... 30+k even better.... but I am just trying to find a base value to list it at.
Thank you all for your help.

hornetball

I would suggest taking it to an auction.  Mecum would probably be best for an actual Indy pace car.

I vintage race, and can tell you that cars with great history ARE worth more.  The issue here is that the Eldo being an Indy pace car was a bit odd.  You're kind of in a never-never land.  Caddy people (generalizing) don't care about racing.  And race people (generalizing) don't care about land yachts.  There are exceptions -- and that is who you want to find.

Good luck.

R Pope

Agree with hornetball if you end up going to auction but you still have work to do ...

First, check several of the value guides to establish a range of value just for a "normal" 73 pace car. Secondly, take good photos of everything, especially around the area of the accident. Third, you need to validate the Racer connection with VIN, photos, or notarized documents. Just telling the story does not make new buyers believe it is true.
Pace cars had tons of options, if not all. Test them. These cars are not without some gremlins. The better working condition, the better.
If it were me, I would then post it on eBay with a very high reserve. Your "I don't want to sell it money" and see where it goes. Most car people use eBay as a gauge and who knows you may find a very interested buyer that hits your silly reserve - which it sounds like you would be ok with. Someone with a better exchange rate may pay up for the car. You just never know.
It if survives the eBay run, I would go the auction route but now you have transportation and other fees that will cut into your profit. So, you will need to decide on either reposting on eBay at a more realistic reserve, or going to auction.
BTW, sorry for your loss. I know personally that going through this is not fun and can be frustrating and depressing at the same time.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: hornetball on January 18, 2020, 08:28:45 AM
I would suggest taking it to an auction.  Mecum would probably be best for an actual Indy pace car.

I vintage race, and can tell you that cars with great history ARE worth more.  The issue here is that the Eldo being an Indy pace car was a bit odd.  You're kind of in a never-never land.  Caddy people (generalizing) don't care about racing.  And race people (generalizing) don't care about land yachts.  There are exceptions -- and that is who you want to find.

Exactly my thinking. Were the Pace Car something more along the lines of a sports car, ie: Mustang, Corvette, Trans Am etc (the type of car most likely to appeal to auto racing fans), I could see a much broader market.

There is also the question of whether this exact car had actually been used for pacing or was it simply one of many that sat on the sideline.

In any case, I stand on condition being most critical to value. The history would have the greatest impact on value of a high grade original; far less on an example in average condition.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: Anthony A on January 17, 2020, 07:53:52 PM
I believe he paid $24k four years ago.

If you don't make a deal with Brian, I would suggest you put it up on eBay with a reserve you feel comfortable with and see what happens, then relist if necessary.  Emphasize that it's not just a replica but one of the 53 track/festival cars and specifically the one given to race winner Gordon Johncock.  Also be upfront about its overall condition, previous accident, etc.  If you go this route, you may want to wait to post until closer to the Indy 500 race as hype/publicity surrounding the race tends to increase interest in Indy 500 automobilia.  eBay can be an inexpensive way to at least get a feel for the market for this type of car and you could then, as others have mentioned, also try an auction like Mecum but be sure to factor in auction related costs and fees.  Listing it on consignment with a classic/collector car dealer would be another option.

fishnjim

Call a professional car appraiser, first.   They'll identify what's holding it back.
May need a few $ spent to raise it's appeal.   Stuff you probably don't want to do or can't.

Hagerty: condition 3 $19, 4 $10k "current".   

So cleaned up with a little documented provenance, it should do slightly better, maybe what was paid for it.   Depends how you market it, 1 of 1, or 1-500+?   Probably spend a few grand and raise to 2+-3 and make your money back and widen the collector appeal.
As a "driver", the provenance is not going to add any value. ie, used '73 eldo in OK condition.   
If you find that one collector that idolizes, Gordon Johncock, is your best money.

Cape Cod Fleetwood

This car has Mecum written all over it. The Gordon Johncock connection is significant as long as it documented, the crash info story too if that can be documented. Gordon won the Indy 500 in 1973, he's also still alive but very old. If you could arrange with him for his attendance at the auction, maybe drive the car onto the stage, it would make for great theater. You can reach out Mecum directly for info on how to appraise the car, its in their best interest for the car to sell for as much as possible, they get a bigger cut. I'd get at least 3 appraisals from legitimate folks, then you know what your reserve price should be. You can always state a percentage of the sale price will be donated to some childhood medical research group, this drives the super rich to bid way too high. Just a thought...

Laurie
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all