Looking for a special rivet

Started by Cadman-iac, February 17, 2020, 05:18:08 PM

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Cadman-iac

Steve,
I can see why he might have been concerned about it,  since he deals with aircraft repairs. But a bolt in a  hanger isn't going to cause your car to fall apart.  Like you said, it's not the space shuttle!

I don't think I'm going to look for the rivets anymore, as the general consensus is that the repair is more hazardous than the problem.  I'm gonna go with machine screws, for the ease of assembly, and because I can remove and reuse them if I have to.
I looked closely at the ones that came out,  and they were all bent from being pressed or hammered to flare the end. If I can't do that correctly,  I  risk destroying the entire thing.  I'm not willing to take the risk even though I have more.
Like has been said before,  "they're not making any more".

But thanks for the suggestion.  That's one more source if I ever do need it.
Rick
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

cadman56

Yep, not many probably know what you mean with those questions.
McVeys, had the kit and parts to rebuild my washer pump when I worked on my convertible.  I sent the whole unit in and Harold did the  rebuild.  Nice job and it worked perfectly.
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Cadman-iac

#22
Quote from: cadman56 on February 18, 2020, 11:58:28 AM
Yep, not many probably know what you mean with those questions.
McVeys, had the kit and parts to rebuild my washer pump when I worked on my convertible.  I sent the whole unit in and Harold did the  rebuild.  Nice job and it worked perfectly.

Yes, I got an answer from them already.  They do sell the "kit" for the pump. It's just not listed on their site. They also suggested that I speak to a guy named Craig who has been building these for decades. So that's what I'll do. I'll also ask them about the coordinator seals. I have 2 of them and both are inoperative.  I've taken them apart and discovered why. The main seals have dried up and shrunken down to the point where they are no longer working,  and the small one in the front end has broken in half from drying out and age I guess. The front one is easy enough to make,  I've already done that for one unit. But the rear seal is  made into the plunger where you can't get to it to replace it.
I'm also not sure what material the rear one is made of.  It's either rubber or leather,  but so small and dirty I can't tell.
Rick

PS: And yes,  I know that most people don't mess with these things,  but I'm a curious sort and want to know how things work. That works to my advantage sometimes,  but gets me into trouble alot too!
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Cadman-iac

Ok! I just ordered the kit from McVey's for the pump. So I'll update when I have something to update.  Looking forward to getting it working now.
My sincerest thanks to everyone for their information and suggestions.  It is all very appreciated.
Rick
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Cadman-iac

#24
Ok, I've been working on this washer pump for a couple of days now, and I have gotten it working, but not to my satisfaction yet.
I'm not sure if the vacuum pump I'm using has enough suction to cause the washer pump to operate properly. I'm using a vacuum pump for A/C systems,  since it is capable of pulling down to 28 inches or so. But I think the problem is that it's not got enough volume for this test.
Has anyone else tried this testing method on a washer pump before? I'd like to know if I'm on the right track before I haul everything out to the truck and hook up a vacuum hose to it that way.

I had initially been testing it with the water hose just stuck in a bottle to catch the water in. But I wasn't getting any reaction from the coordinator this way. Then I realized that the vacuum "switch" inside the pump requires a certain amount of back pressure from the water line in order to activate the coordinator. Once I connected the washer nozzles to the system, it would build up enough pressure to activate the vacuum switch to the coordinator.
  One of the problems is that the coordinator wants to activate, but it's apparently not getting enough vacuum to it. You can see it starting to work, but it won't push the wiper motor switch to the "on" position.
  The other thing I was thinking was that possibly the vacuum hoses are not large enough.

If I didn't care about using the coordinator in the system,  I've got it licked,  but since it's supposed to be a part of it, I'd like to make it work.

Any thoughts on this anyone?

Rick

PS: As for the rivets,  I guess I'm going to have to find some more to use on the other pumps I have. I got lucky and one of them had a really good set of gaskets in it  yet, and another one was almost as good.
What I did was to thread the end of the new rivets since they were long enough and use a nut rather than try to swedge the ends of the rivets. You take a chance of damaging the pump that way.  Plus,  since they are now threaded,  I can take them back apart if they're not working correctly.
A #6/32 die will work perfectly on them. I was able to use the longest of the old rivets after I removed them. They were long enough to work for the shorter locations just fine. And being copper,  they threaded easily enough.
The new ones are aluminum with a hollow end on them.  If you use a 2mm allen wrench in the end before you begin to thread it, it allows you to use the wrench to hold the rivets when you are tightening the nuts. The copper ones I didn't have that option with.
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

J. Gomez

Rick,

Not sure if you had a chance to rear by previous reply or if I did indicated the water pump itself on this post.  ???

The amount of fluid that will be pushed by the pump would be what will be inside the clear plastic reservoir when the plunger pulls and fills it, just a few ounces.  :(  You would need a few cycles of the pump to get a good clean windshield.   ;)

The pump should work with about 10-13 Hg vac so your HVAC pump is more than enough. Just remember is not the constant flow as electrics one.

As for the coordinator have you tested with vacuum and see if it pulls and holds and actuator? It has a rubber seal inside that should activate with vacuum and hold. There is also a small rubber seal where the steel wire goes through to block any leaks.
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

Cadman-iac

#26
Hi Jose, thanks for the reply.  Yes, the coordinator works great with the vacuum applied directly to it. I went through it and replaced the  small "forward" seal as it had split in two.  Both of my coordinators had that problem.
I just tried it again with a larger vacuum line and a sleeve on the coordinator to accommodate it. It works great now. I kinda cheated a bit though by using a small amount of air pressure to the water inlet line to simulate the water pressure on the pump before I reassemble it and retest it again.
The pump itself works fine. It has from the start as there's not much to go wrong with it. It seems that most of the problems are in the control valve unit on the top of the pump.
But hopefully I've figured that out now too. I think the problem I had initially with the coordinator not engaging was because I hadn't connected the washer nozzles it didn't build pressure enough to open the vacuum switch. Then because of the small vacuum hose I was using it wasn't getting enough volume of vacuum to pull the coordinator. I had just went with the line that fit the little nipple on the coordinator,  but maybe I should have started with a bigger one and avoided all of the headaches.
Hopefully this will help the next person who wants to rebuild their washer pump assembly.

Rick

PS:  I'll post pictures of the rebuild a little later as right now things are a real mess on my bench.
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

fishnjim

Glad you're on your way on this.   But for next time.

https://www.rivetsonline.com/rivet-data

You need the right "name" for what you want in order to find it; type, material, under head length, etc.  Most distributors will have some sort of call out they use for their parts ordering.  One needs the right rivet and the right fastening tool for the job.
That's a solid round head shown.   
There are standard rivets and companies, Hanson, etc. that make them.   But they usually sell through distributors, unless you want to buy a pallet or truck load.   I usually ask for a sample to get free ones when I need a few or aren't sure if right.

I believe "Spruce" does not manufacture but is a parts supplier.   I've bought from them, once, they're aircraft, not auto, oriented.   So that's a bit more technical for aircraft certification reasons.   It's same as two people speaking different languages trying to communicate.   
Old timers would make this with a piece of copper rod and a peen hammer, but past the days of craftsmen.   I suspect the factory used a machine or jig to make these, so was not a DIY - hand crafted item, per se.   That way they got the proper sealing tension repeatedly.   So it may not be as easy as getting the right rivet.   Why they say to talk to the "expert".
I don't use vacuum for wipers nor windshield washer.   OK for show, but not up to today driving requirements.   I replace with electrics.

Cadman-iac

#28
Thanks for the tips Jim,  I'll check with them on this.

Ok, IT WORKS!!!!

I got it to work perfectly.  What I seem to have been doing wrong was, I wasn't pressing the washer button long enough for the pump control to react. Once I did that, it all began to function exactly as it should.
I was half right about the hose not being large enough,  but by keeping the button pressed down for a couple of seconds it allowed the vacuum to stabilize I guess would be the best way to describe it.
I was using a vacuum gauge tee'd  into the main line to determine if the system was working and to help diagnose the problems. When I would disconnect the line at the pump that was going to the switch it would work fine, so in order to test if it was actually a line size issue, I disconnected it at the switch end. When it began to work this way as well, it  made me think about the possibility of the switch not releasing the vacuum as it should. But by holding the button down for a couple of seconds,  it started working normally.
I'm going to investigate the switch to see if there's anything wrong with it, but I'm thinking it's just all in how you activate it with the switch.

Now for the pictures. 
This first one is the coordinator all disassembled. If you look at the left side of the picture you can see the small washer that seals the front of the coordinator. These seem to have a problem with splitting as both of mine had the same problem.

The second picture is of the old rivets that came out of the pumps. In the front you can see a screw and nut I am using on one of the pumps, but there's also a piece of brass rod that I had tried to make a new rivet out of.  Actually I think rivet is the wrong word for what I'm doing. It needs the same head as the rivets,  but I thread the other end and use a nut on it.
The problem with the brass was getting the top to mushroom like the original rivet heads. So I gave up on that idea. Instead,  I  used the longer original rivets and just threaded them on the bottom end.

This third picture is the pump control itself,  where the rivets are used to hold the pieces together and also mount it to the lid and the pump unit itself. You can see the allen wrench stuck in the end of the new threaded rivet.

The fourth pic is of both pump control units I've been working on. One has new gaskets in it, the other has good used ones.

The fifth is both control units from another angle.

The sixth one is the pump control disassembled.  This is the one with the used gaskets, also shown here.

The seventh one is the actual pump  itself.

Number 8 is the kids and gaskets for the jars. The jar gaskets are made from cardboard that has a waterproof coating on the bottom side. Unfortunately the water can get to the top side and soak it, and it usually shrinks over time.

In number 9 you can see the new gasket I cut out from a piece of card stock and sprayed it on both sides with clear coat to waterproof it.
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Gene Beaird

I did not look to see if they have what you're looking for, but Aircraft Spruce has a decent selection of rivets of all kinds:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ha/rivets.html
Gene Beaird,
1968 Calais
1979 Seville
Pearland, Texas
CLC Member No. 29873

Cadman-iac

Quote from: Gene Beaird on February 26, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
I did not look to see if they have what you're looking for, but Aircraft Spruce has a decent selection of rivets of all kinds:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ha/rivets.html

Thanks Gene, I looked at there website but the one I need doesn't seem to be in their inventory. It's got to be an eighth inch in diameter and just over an inch long, actually 1 1/2 inches to be exact, and I can shorten them if need be. All I could find there was only one inch long. 
I'm not actually using them as rivets,  it's just that the heads are so small that they don't interfere with the lid when it's mounted on it.
I can use screws, but I'd have to drill out the unit for them to pass through,  and then also drill the lid so that the heads don't keep it from sitting down on it properly. That makes it hard for anyone to restore it back to original if they ever wanted to.
With the rivets,  I can thread the ends, and they'll pass through everything without having to drill it out. If I need to, I can take it apart to repair if necessary.

I would also prefer to use copper ones like the factory had if I could find them. But the next best thing is aluminum. The ones that come with the seal kit are aluminum and I didn't have any problems threading them. And with the hollow end it actually makes it easier to install because you can use an allen wrench to hold it while tightening the nut.

On another subject,  I did find the vacuum hose diameter does make a difference in how the unit works. I tried it again this morning when it was cold, and and it didn't want to work until I increased the hose size to the wiper switch. Now it works fine.

Rick
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

79 Eldorado

If it's going through a layer of steel Aluminum and steel don't do well together (any chance of corrosion and the Aluminum will sacrifice itself). After reading the challenges of your thread I was thinking brass button head screw and then maybe try to mask the feature the screw is driven with to look more like a rivet. I know you mentioned the look doesn't bother you. The point someone made regarding clinching the rivet without damaging those layers could be a series challenge and I guess you have one shot if the parts are hard to find.

Hope it goes well,
Scott

wrench

#32
If you are going the copper faux rivet route, you could buy some 1/8” x 6” copper rod from Amazon ($7.99 for 2 each) cut it to length, thread one end and form a head on the other end. It looks like they were brazier head or even flat. Copper is soft enough to work to get the shape head you want. It may take a couple of tries to get the exact shape you want but once you figure out the methodology, you would be able to duplicate it pretty easily.

Or you could spec a copper nail and size the head and thread the other end...
1951 Series 62 Sedan
1969 Eldorado
1970 Eldorado (Triple Black w/power roof)
1958 Apache 3/4 ton 4x4
2005 F250
2014 FLHP
2014 SRX

Cadman-iac

Yes, I had been thinking about the aluminum corroding over time.  But it's what McVey's gives you in their overhaul kit, so it must work well for a while at least. But I would prefer copper if I could get it.
I did try making my own copper rivets from some copper wire I had, but I had the same results I did with the brass rod. I don't have anything that will completely surround it so it won't bend or distort when I try to mash a new head onto it. The end result was a big wad of bent wire that didn't resemble anything close to a rivet head. I do have some rivet setting tools,  but they were for a larger size and meant for an air chisel. But it's got the right shape for it.
  I also looked at using nails,  but all I had were steel, which would have worked,  but a lot harder to thread and the head would have to be ground down to the right size.
I'll have to look online for a copper nail or rivet that will work. But at least I had enough of the old ones that were long enough so I got 2 of these working great.
Thanks to everyone for the helpful suggestions and sites to look for the rivets.  I do appreciate the help.
Rick
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Gene Beaird

I figured it could be a bust, but figured I'd offer that link up, just in case they had what you're needing.  If it's not for a 100-point concours car, I'd probably use some stainless button-head machine screws to hold things together, but it looks like you have a solution. 

Congrats on the successful rebuild, and posting the pictures.  Nice work!

Quote from: Cadman-iac on February 26, 2020, 12:17:27 PM
Thanks Gene, I looked at there website but the one I need doesn't seem to be in their inventory. It's got to be an eighth inch in diameter and just over an inch long, actually 1 1/2 inches to be exact, and I can shorten them if need be. All I could find there was only one inch long. 
I'm not actually using them as rivets,  it's just that the heads are so small that they don't interfere with the lid when it's mounted on it.
I can use screws, but I'd have to drill out the unit for them to pass through,  and then also drill the lid so that the heads don't keep it from sitting down on it properly. That makes it hard for anyone to restore it back to original if they ever wanted to.
With the rivets,  I can thread the ends, and they'll pass through everything without having to drill it out. If I need to, I can take it apart to repair if necessary.

I would also prefer to use copper ones like the factory had if I could find them. But the next best thing is aluminum. The ones that come with the seal kit are aluminum and I didn't have any problems threading them. And with the hollow end it actually makes it easier to install because you can use an allen wrench to hold it while tightening the nut.

On another subject,  I did find the vacuum hose diameter does make a difference in how the unit works. I tried it again this morning when it was cold, and and it didn't want to work until I increased the hose size to the wiper switch. Now it works fine.

Rick
Gene Beaird,
1968 Calais
1979 Seville
Pearland, Texas
CLC Member No. 29873

Cadman-iac

#35
Here's something I noticed while doing this. There's at least two designs on the control unit parts, and Craig at McVey's had told me as much, but here's the differences between them.

In the first picture you can see where the tips of the pencils are pointing, this is for the atmospheric pressure to get to the diaphragms inside so it will operate. The one on the left is, I'm guessing,  the later design, and it uses an internal passage that comes out under the lid so that the dirt and dust won't get into it.
The one on the right has a passage that comes out right in front and above the lid, so if you are in a dusty area and operate the washer pump,  it's possible to draw in the dust/dirt directly into the control unit.

In the second picture, this is what you see on the top of the same pieces. The one on the left has a small opening that is actually covered when it's assembled, but it's there for manufacturing purposes, and it also makes it easier to identify. It's how they make the connection between the passages internally.
I didn't realize that the difference was there until I began looking at the old gaskets and noticed a little bulge in one that wasn't in the other one. So I thought it might be interesting and helpful for someone else to know if they are building one of these.
The nice thing about the difference is that it doesn't matter if you mix and match the pieces because the center piece is the same for both designs. The top piece works with both.
For those of you who have not looked at this before,  there's 3 plastic pieces in the unit,  with a fourth one made of pot metal on the top. But to simplify the discussion,  I'm only referring to the 3 plastic parts.

The "C" shaped passage on the right hand piece is still vented to the bottom of the lid the same as the left piece is. The main difference is that the left one also vents the front diaphragm to the underside of the lid instead of to the outside of the unit as the one on the right side does.

In the third picture you can see where the outside passage is,  as my flashlight shows through it. The later design still has the small indentation in the front of it for the passage,  it just hasn't been drilled through.

And lastly,  one of the identifying features of the first and second designs are shown in the fourth picture. You can see the raised area on the right piece that is not on the left one.

I hope this information will help someone out that's trying to rebuild one of these units. It sure would have been useful if I had known this going in.

One last thing, if you go to clean up the pieces, only use a strong soap or plain alcohol,  as anything stronger will cause the plastic to become sticky, as if it's melting. The material is not the same as what is used today. Unfortunately I discovered that one out the hard way when I almost ruined one. It's still useable,  but it's not pretty now.

Good luck to anyone wanting to do this.  It's not hard, just tedious.

PS: One last tip, the very bottom piece where the vacuum is applied to the pump piston itself has a small raised area that the seal seats against. This can get dirty or warped, and the rubber washer/seal doesn't seal, or is slow in doing so. I've found that if you lightly sand the very top, or bottom, depending upon your point of view, it helps in making it seal better and faster. Just be careful in doing this that you don't go too far. I took a piece of 400 grit sandpaper and placed the piece down on it and lightly rotated it back and forth to smooth it out. This also gives it just a slightly larger surface to seal against. This is in the last picture.
You might be able to make out the difference between the two pieces where I sanded the one on the left.
Also, the pencil is pointing at a small vent that acts as an atmospheric bleed until the pump is activated. If you sand too far, and the vent is not there,  the pump would not release the piston once the vacuum has drawn it up and the piston plunger closes the seal.

(In the last picture you can see what too strong a cleaner does to the plastic. The right one is the one I used it on).
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Cadman-iac

Jim,
   
Quote from: fishnjim on February 25, 2020, 08:31:32 PM
Glad you're on your way on this.   But for next time.

https://www.rivetsonline.com/rivet-data
I just contacted the rivet company you had mentioned about getting some copper rivets for these pumps.  Hopefully they will get back to me soon.
Thanks for the link,  I do appreciate that.

Rick
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Cadman-iac

Well it's a no go on the longer rivets, but I can use some screws and nuts for that part. I can get the other ones in aluminum, $15 for a hundred.
But I've got two of the pumps working perfectly now, so I have one to use and one for a backup if it's ever needed.
I also called McVey's to see if they would sell just the rivets, but they don't.
So ends the saga of the washer pump rebuild.  The rest of mine are just going to be for parts if needed.

I'm hoping this thread will be some help to anyone wanting to rebuild their own. I would be happy to answer any questions if you want to contact me.
Many thanks to everyone who has assisted in this process with information or suggestions.

Rick
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"