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Points

Started by spolij, March 02, 2020, 03:24:40 PM

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spolij

should the scorch marks on the surface look like A or B?


marty55cdv

Those marks are there due to the arc that occurs when the points open and close, cheap point sets usually don't meet flat out of the box,  so some tweaking of the arm is needed, but whether or not that improves anything I couldn't say. 
Marty Smith
  CLC #22760
41 60 Special http://bit.ly/1Wm0GvT
55 CDV http://bit.ly/1G933IY
56 Fleetwood
1958 Extended Deck http://bit.ly/1NPYhGC
1959 Fleetwood  http://bit.ly/1OFsrOE
1960 Series 62 Coupe
1960 Sedan DeVille  4 window Flattop
63 Fleetwood http://bit.ly/1iSz17J
1964 Eldorado http://bit.ly/1Wm17GA  (Living in California now)
1988 EBC http://bit.ly/1iSACKz

Dave Shepherd


spolij

Thanks Marty

Dave     I forgot i put letters on the pic. I looked at your post and thought B what is he talking about. lol Thanks.
John

James Landi

Yes, "B" is the correct answer, and as stated above, there's is a minor misalignment.   That's not to say that you can be successful at bending one of the "point of contacts" into a better set of positions-- perhaps other members have been successful-- I won't even try.   Having changed so many points, I dare not mention a number, the rule of thumb "was" (is?) every 10-15 thousand miles, one should perform a tune up.  "THEY" also used to sell point files-- also used to caution about using any tool except a point file, but I haven't seen a point file at a parts store in decades.  I suggest that if you check your dwell with a meter-- if it  is a steady 30 degrees --- that's fine, and check the readings according to your vacuum gauge, which will provide you with all the other vital signs of a well tuned motor.   Then, I'd carry a spare set of point (and several condensers, since new ones seem to fail at an alarming rate).   Hope this helps,   James

Lexi

While on the subject of points and those carried as a spare set. If you have an extra distributor (even one just for parts), do the following. Next time you change your points, get the best dwell adjustment out of them before removing. Then put the old ones in your spare distributor, on your work bench, and with a feeler gauge measure the opening when on the high point of the cam block. Remove, then install the new points also in the parts distributor, & adjust to the same opening as the old set. Best to do with with 2 sets of new points, as one set will be your spare. Install the new points in your car and it should be in the ball park with only minor adjusting required. Your car should start right away, on first try. That way it removes all the crank-no start and lots of point adjusting (and save your starter motor). Also, the extra set will be your spare in the trunk, ready to go in case of an emergency, (barring odd cam block wear since last adjusted). Who wants to fiddle with what can sometimes be a finicky point adjustment at the side of the road? In theory, proper alignment of the contact points should also help but I cannot offer any personal experience on that. James is right, also carry extra condensers as well. Clay/Lexi

Cadman-iac

For a point file you can use a jeweler's file.  It's small enough to get into the distributor if you are doing it on the car. And it works great off the car. There's a lot of different ones available too. Just be sure to get one that both sides are parallel to each other.  They make some that are tapered, and if you use one of them your points will be ruined.
I think that they are available in a set at Harbor Freight. If not there, then look online.
My wife is into making jewelry,  and she gave me a couple of sets that had a few missing ones,  but they had enough for me to do what I needed to do. They've been great for working on fixing  stainless trim pieces.

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Daryl Chesterman

NAPA still has an ignition points file available--might have to be ordered though.  Part number is:  SER 2153

Daryl Chesterman

TJ Hopland

I have seen them at other stores in stock out on the shelves.  Performance Tool is the brand I think.   Oriley's is one I usually see them at but I think I have seen that brand at other stores too.  Once you leave the automotive realm they call them contact burnishing tools or files.

What I use most of the time is one of those little dremel tool cut off discs.  Not the newer fiber ones (that are awesome for cutting by the way)  but the thin really fragile brown ones that have been around for a long time with the tiny screw hole in em.   I don't put it in the tool just use the raw disc by hand.   

If its just corrosion from ambient conditions a dollar bill (or hundred if that is how you roll) has enough texture to just give them a nice polish without doing damage. 

And the only brand of currently made new points that has not YET let me down is Standard Blue Streak.    All the rest including some of the formerly good names are absolute garbage.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

cadillacmike68

#9
Quote from: lexi on March 02, 2020, 05:11:03 PM
While on the subject of points and those carried as a spare set. If you have an extra distributor (even one just for parts), do the following. Next time you change your points, get the best dwell adjustment out of them before removing. Then put the old ones in your spare distributor, on your work bench, and with a feeler gauge measure the opening when on the high point of the cam block. Remove, then install the new points also in the parts distributor, & adjust to the same opening as the old set. Best to do with with 2 sets of new points, as one set will be your spare. Install the new points in your car and it should be in the ball park with only minor adjusting required. Your car should start right away, on first try. That way it removes all the crank-no start and lots of point adjusting (and save your starter motor). Also, the extra set will be your spare in the trunk, ready to go in case of an emergency, (barring odd cam block wear since last adjusted). Who wants to fiddle with what can sometimes be a finicky point adjustment at the side of the road? In theory, proper alignment of the contact points should also help but I cannot offer any personal experience on that. James is right, also carry extra condensers as well. Clay/Lexi

Just look at your old points and put the adjusting screw on the new set as close to the same position as the old set set it will start every time.

Point sets where one half is a hollow ring and the other solid are usually considered the better type while the set with two solid contact points are less well liked.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Jay Friedman

Quote from: TJ Hopland on March 03, 2020, 12:58:42 AM.....And the only brand of currently made new points that has not YET let me down is Standard Blue Streak.  All the rest including some of the formerly good names are absolute garbage.

I've also had good results with NOS Delco Remy points for sale on ebay.  My '49 uses DR part number 1918148 which I can usually find for $6 or $7 a set. 
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

fishnjim

"c" - no "scorching"   Scorching indicates black.   The metal oxides are whitish.
Since the points are closed mostly, the gap must not be right in your example.
Time for a new set in either case.
I think files went down when points became "cheap".   All those filings stayed in the distributor too.   Who in their right mind would take them out for that?   Mostly to "clean" the surface more than flatten.
Used to not have much choice, mostly pre-war.   Post-war quite plentiful.
It's a mechanical electrical system so expect some variation and maintenance.   Why do you think they changed to electronic?
The "condenser" capacitor is supposed to prevent premature and spurious arking, by creating a square wave pulse.   So that should be changed as well.   They even made combined sets, for that reason and make more money.   The condenser internals aren't very robust and you can't see in there and need a tester/DVM to tell.
You need to inspect the points "cam" as they can wear uneven and change the gap or
flatness.   
Frankly, my dear, I'd use electronic.    It a chore to lean over those fat fenders and snuggle up to the dist.   With bifocals, it's not even a fair fight.

Lexi

Just switched over to Pertronix on mine as I dislike the unfriendly location of these GM distributors. Up until my last set of points I was using Standard brand and was always happy with them. Clay/lexi

Cadman-iac

I have always had good luck with the Echlin brand that Napa sells, but it's been many years since I've used points in anything. I typically got 50K miles out of a set, and I only changed them because of the mileage, not because they were not performing.
Now they were not in a Cadillac, but in my old GMC V6, but "points is points". I've never had good luck with the cheap brands, but to be fair,  I don't know how good the Napa ones are now either.
That V6 GMC is the last engine I've had that I used points in,  and if I could have,  I  would  have converted it to  an HEI unit, simply for the hotter spark.

In my 56 that I'm putting the 472 into,  I've already installed an HEI distributor from a 79.
Even though you can always get a set of points to work in a  pinch, and the module in an HEI can't be repaired,  the HEI provides better performance, and the module is easily changed if need be.
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

spolij

#14
Okay I tweaked the points and found out how easy it is to throw them completely out of alignment. LOL I finally got them to a point where they looked good to me. I reinstalled them and set the dwell to 30. I guess in a few weeks I'll check them out again.

Jim   I don't understand the first part of your post. Are you saying that if the points are aligned perfectly there would be no scorch marks? In diagram A is my set of points that burnt in the grayish spot and are therefore not aligned right. In B the black line I put in represents what I thought the scorch marks should be like.

So it sounds like you're all saying a condenser could burnout while you driving and the engine dies. So besides an extra condenser and points you need to bring tools!

And when you say file the points down, is that to get rid of the scorch marks or to try to mate the points better?

cadillacmike68

You should see the size and try to lift the toolbox I carry all the time.

I like the uni-sets, both on one piece, easier to remove / install. And I still like the hollow ring ACDelco sets. I never had a set bad out of the box.

pertronix or whatev - pure blasphemy.  8)

My P&C car starts in 1/10 of a second on a cold / warm start (as long as it hasn't been sitting for days), so there.  :P
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

James Landi

Regarding the "service life" of points, clearly, the 10,000 to 15,000 mile  traditional points, condenser, plugs, ("...and while you're at it throw in a rotor, cap, and maybe even a set of wires), were huge cash cows for those manufactures, and, of course, for people who made a living in the car tune up  business. Electronic ignition ushered in the era of trouble free 100,000 mile tune  ups.  Additionally, with the on board computer diagnostics, a mildly miss firing cylinder now receives ignition components for that cylinder ONLY.  So part of this discussion dealing with burnt points, must also take into account, those rare events when someone leaves the ignition switch on, and distinct possibility that the points are contacting just enough to create a destructive arching effect---    James

TJ Hopland

Electronic ignition came in the mid 70's.  I don't think 100k tuneups got somewhat common till the 90's.   I don't think the 100k was any one thing it was an overall combination of improvements in materials and systems but you do have a point (pun intended) about the difference.  I don't think you would have made it 10k in any 60's car only putting gas in it.   Today 10k oil changes are common and most of the time the oil consumption is low enough you don't even need to add any in that time.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Lexi

Yes, leaving the ignition on with the car not running is not good for points. But, the fellow who rebuilt my distributor said that doing the same with Pertronix installed is also not good. It just takes longer for some damage to occur. He did not specify what part would be affected. So sounds like the same rules apply if he is correct. Clay/Lexi

TJ Hopland

With Pertronix for the last 20 years you have to specify which model you are talking about.   

I believe the original Ignitor is just an electronic non contact version of the points so I suppose its possible that its that 'dumb' and if the engine happens to stop with the magnet aligned with the sensor it will leave the coil on just like if the points were closed.

According to their own website the Ignitor II is 'smarter' and uses a micro controller which makes it like the original HEI.  It should not matter that the magnet is aligned with the sensor.  It should just send one pulse to the coil then wait for the next signal to come which won't happen if the engine isn't turning. 

The Ignitor III looks like it ads multi spark and rev limiting.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason