3d printing basics and what sorts of Cadillac parts are possible

[TJ Hopland]

I think what he was asking is does anyone know of a service where you can send in a broken or damaged part and get back a new part?   I would imagine there is but I don't think most people would consider it practical cost wise.  People with the skills to do the scanning then digital repairing to create the digital plans for a new part don't come cheap.   You would then have to pay to have an inexpensive part made to test fit before moving on to the expensive part.  I'm sure things are improving and becoming easier therefore cheaper but I don't think that end is there yet. 

What we are mostly talking about here is that we are for the most part fumbling our way through the design stages ourselves then printing a plastic part on the sub $500 diy printers to test fit and verify our design.   Its then if the part needs to be a more durable material that the digital design is sent off to a service that can print in in basically any material you an afford.   They are printing rocket engines so its no longer a question of is there a material strong enough its just back to can you afford it.   Printing rocket engines likely pays better than a window crank handle for an old car. 

[39Flathead]

I think what he was asking is does anyone know of a service where you can send in a broken or damaged part and get back a new part?   I would imagine there is but I don't think most people would consider it practical cost wise.  People with the skills to do the scanning then digital repairing to create the digital plans for a new part don't come cheap.   You would then have to pay to have an inexpensive part made to test fit before moving on to the expensive part.  I'm sure things are improving and becoming easier therefore cheaper but I don't think that end is there yet. 

What we are mostly talking about here is that we are for the most part fumbling our way through the design stages ourselves then printing a plastic part on the sub $500 diy printers to test fit and verify our design.   Its then if the part needs to be a more durable material that the digital design is sent off to a service that can print in in basically any material you an afford.   They are printing rocket engines so its no longer a question of is there a material strong enough its just back to can you afford it.   Printing rocket engines likely pays better than a window crank handle for an old car.

I think the first step would be to start building a catalog of existing components that can either be machined or printed new. For example the brass/bronze? synchros in the LaSalle 3 speed? Easy to machine but I don't have a drawing. If people have their hands on hard to replace items we could start pulling measurements using calipers and pictures, and creating CAD models and drawings. Once there's a database of these parts people could replace their broken parts as needed. Hey my whatever broke, download file from Cadillac database, send over to print shop with surface finish requirements already on the drawing, get back your finalized part.

[jp1gt]

What I mean is to give the company/hobbyist a perfect part and duplicate it. Even chrome plate it. From what I see is that you scan the part and then reproduce it. Trying to get away from companies that make parts for aerospace and not in a real hurry. I see people that have small chrome shops, this would be perfect for the same thing.

[39Flathead]

What I mean is to give the company/hobbyist a perfect part and duplicate it. Even chrome plate it. From what I see is that you scan the part and then reproduce it. Trying to get away from companies that make parts for aerospace and not in a real hurry. I see people that have small chrome shops, this would be perfect for the same thing.

The first step is to start creating models. Simple parts with machined geometries should be able to be modeled into CAD. Complex components with compound curves would need to be scanned or CMM'd to get accurate profiles, then produced in CAD.

Once we have parts that have models or drawings depending on the production method, anyone can submit these models to any print shop with the necessary post-processing equipment and get the end use replacement part ready to be mounted to the car.

[79 Eldorado]

A. LaVelle,
You're missing an important part of the procedure TJ mentioned which is test fitting. If you had a complete catalog of every part on you car but nothing had been verified, and for functional parts, tested you would have the equivalent of a minefield. You wouldn't really know what parts in the catalog could be trusted. Even without testing it would be great to have accurate geometry for many parts but you would still need to figure out a way to rate how accurate the geometry is. Sometimes parts break and a design change is even desirable.

A lot of engineering goes into parts. If you reverse engineer or copy it may seem easy but there's still significant work to do. There's an Oldsmobile thermostat housing which was copied by the aftermarket. It looks perfect in the photos but the neck is so far off the part is literally useless. I made the mistake of completely detailing and painting the one I bought for my Eldorado before test fitting. Once I did that I couldn't return it so when I get a chance it will make a beautiful coat hook. There are more and more examples like that which were produced by companies with a lot of money but didn't do the work.

I would love to have access to the geometry but any geometry I was interested in I would carefully verify with my own measurements. So the database you're suggested could be helpful but it can also be dangerous because it would enable people who would skip the verification steps. One of the biggest issues with the aftermarket for cars which are well supported is it's difficult to tell the parts which someone did a good job versus parts which someone did not. Do you simply assume the highest price part must be the best? Do some manufacturers stop making parts because there are so many sources available but which may not actually work.

A lot to consider.

Scott

[39Flathead]

A. LaVelle,
You're missing an important part of the procedure TJ mentioned which is test fitting. If you had a complete catalog of every part on you car but nothing had been verified, and for functional parts, tested you would have the equivalent of a minefield. You wouldn't really know what parts in the catalog could be trusted. Even without testing it would be great to have accurate geometry for many parts but you would still need to figure out a way to rate how accurate the geometry is. Sometimes parts break and a design change is even desirable.

A lot of engineering goes into parts. If you reverse engineer or copy it may seem easy but there's still significant work to do. There's an Oldsmobile thermostat housing which was copied by the aftermarket. It looks perfect in the photos but the neck is so far off the part is literally useless. I made the mistake of completely detailing and painting the one I bought for my Eldorado before test fitting. Once I did that I couldn't return it so when I get a chance it will make a beautiful coat hook. There are more and more examples like that which were produced by companies with a lot of money but didn't do the work.

I would love to have access to the geometry but any geometry I was interested in I would carefully verify with my own measurements. So the database you're suggested could be helpful but it can also be dangerous because it would enable people who would skip the verification steps. One of the biggest issues with the aftermarket for cars which are well supported is it's difficult to tell the parts which someone did a good job versus parts which someone did not. Do you simply assume the highest price part must be the best? Do some manufacturers stop making parts because there are so many sources available but which may not actually work.

A lot to consider.

Scott

I'm very familiar with dimensioning and test fitting...I'm a senior additive manufacturing engineer. I've done this by the thousands of components. I started my career in the automotive industry as a chassis engineer and have rebuilt several classics at this point. I've reverse engineered cosmetic and functional parts for 5+ vintage vehicles at this point, including direct printing exhaust manifolds in Inconel 625 as a performance upgrade.

Part of the reverse engineering process is to develop proper tolerances for that component. That's fairly simple to do based on the available additive technologies.

Calipers can probably get you within a couple thou, same with a good 3D scanner. Using a CMM can get you down in the millionths of an inch for accuracy. Then your model is dead on, you just have to choose the correct additive technology to achieve the mechanical properties and dimensional accuracy required, which is why you'd create a drawing to go with the model. The point I'm trying to make is that this effort to build a catalog of replacement parts would be an internal effort, not a company doing it for you. It would rely on the people on this site saying "hey this part is really hard to find, I have one in my hand, maybe I can work with the team here to have it properly measured and recreated into a 3D model!". Once we have a 3D model of it and a good launching point on the tolerance and functionality requirements we can look at what production method is best suited. Can it be a polymer? High temp polymer? High performance polymer? Aluminum? Stainless? A more advanced metal like Titanium? What surface finish does it need? Can it be painted/coated/dipped to achieve that finish? What tolerance does it need, so what printer would it need to be printed on to achieve that spec? All of that info goes into the drawing. For example:

The Ford 226H thermostat housing was challenging to find. No reproductions and very limited NOS supply. Figure a max of 40 psi and 250F? We can look at the HDT value or DMA curve to determine if a given material would survive use. Does it see significant sunlight? If yes we'll need to consider UV degradation and also thermal cycling issues. The part is a flat flange with a vertical to angled neck, fairly simple to redraw in CAD within 5 minutes and you're within +/-0.005 with a set of amazon calipers. Great so we have a model and a performance envelope, people say hey we want that to be metal not plastic. Good call. Ok so we decide the proper material for this would either be an aluminum like AlSi10Mg or maybe even a stainless steel like 316L or 17-4PH. Both are fairly comparable in terms of printed price. The part itself could likely be printed without support but potentially some minor cleanup would be needed depending on user expectations. Now we know the material, the tolerance requirements, and the surface finish so we can choose a specific print technology or printer that meets those requirements. Something like this would probably be best on a DMLS machine but could also be run in binder jet or even metal filament. So from that simple part and a $20 set of calipers we could have a 3D model and a drawing that specifies:
Model
Drawing
Required tolerance
AlSi10Mg/316L
DMLS (EOS 280 or comparable)
Media blasted
No drilling or tapping required

That can be sent to any metal print shop in the world with the machine that matches the drawing and produce it, all without the need to buy it finished from a vintage auto parts vendor.

For more complex print shapes we would just need to iterate a time or two in a polymer like PA12 that mimics the accuracy of a metal machine to dial in the final tolerances, but in the scope of solving a need for a critical component that's a small ask.

I have no skin in this game, I don't own a Cadillac. I do have a military 346 that I'm designing and metal printing an Inconel 625 exhaust manifold for which is why I'm on this forum. I threw out the idea of building a forum catalog of the parts that are getting harder and harder to find, offering to lend some of my expertise on the subject. I'm not here to sell parts as that's not my line of work. But it definitely can't hurt to have the people most focused on the subject working together to keep the rare parts alive, the parts that keep vintage Cadillac's on the road.

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

@39flathead I love your idea, this is the way forward.

[39Flathead]

@39flathead I love your idea, this is the way forward.

Thank you! Have any idea on what good, simple, hard to find part might be a good candidate?

[Cadillac Jack 82]

I'd absolutely love if someone could 3D print the rubber boots for the A/C systems on the 54-56 Cadillacs.....

[39Flathead]

I'd absolutely love if someone could 3D print the rubber boots for the A/C systems on the 54-56 Cadillacs.....

Rubber is tough. Would most likely be FDM printed in a TPU (75A-95A shore hardness) or an SLA material. I'd be concerned with longevity but a test part would be fairly cheap. Do you have a picture with an item for scale?

[Cadillac Jack 82]

Without measuring mine I cannot give exact dimensions but these are what they look like.  I'm sure there would be a lot of other owners who would want a set of these.

[79 Eldorado]

Tim,
It would need to be modeled and I've never priced a part in this material but Sculpteo which is connected with BASF has a photo which shows a material which at least appears similar. Take a look at this link:
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/materials/clip-resin-material/elastomeric-polyurethane-clip-resin-material/

Scott

[39Flathead]

Tim,
It would need to be modeled and I've never priced a part in this material but Sculpteo which is connected with BASF has a photo which shows a material which at least appears similar. Take a look at this link:
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/materials/clip-resin-material/elastomeric-polyurethane-clip-resin-material/

Scott

In my experience, DLP/SLA materials are photopolymers which continue to cure over their lifetime. So while the material out of the printer is very pliable it tends to solidify and become brittle fairly quickly.

For the AC boots the best plan I could recommend would be to prototype dimensions in a 90A TPU/TPE printed on an a large nozzle FDM machine, and then printing the actual units in 88A TPU on the MJF 5210 printer. That will give you a good long term part with no support material and the most professional finish you can hope to expect. That printer is using in many automotive applications and would be your best bed.

[39Flathead]

Without measuring mine I cannot give exact dimensions but these are what they look like.  I'm sure there would be a lot of other owners who would want a set of these.

Would need dimensions of each end and then overall length. That would get us a good starting point.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Al,

You have an email from the Moderators that requires your attention.

Thanks,

Bruce.

[79 Eldorado]

Al,
I normally have the same concern about UV cure materials ...curing over a lifetime. In this case though they Sculpteo is making the statement of end-use products. In addition I think the parts Tim is looking for are inside the dash which would be the best case scenario for avoiding UV. I did see the TPU option but the parts created in the link I shared, along with their comments, made me think it might be the better solution. BASF is first a materials company though so they should be able to comment in more detail.

"With the CLIP (DLS) Process, we're able to deliver prototypes and end-use products ranging from very small parts that meet tolerance demands to medium parts with precise patterns. CLIP (DLS) enables product designers and engineers to produce polymeric parts that have the resolution, surface finish and mechanical properties required for both functional prototyping and production parts for industries as varied as automotive, medical and consumer electronics."

This is the other material which is a type of TPU printed using "Jet fusion"
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/materials/jet-fusion-material/tpu01/
If you scroll down they have a part which looks similar in design complexity and function to Tim's part. Here's a capture of that part.

Scott

[39Flathead]

Al,
I normally have the same concern about UV cure materials ...curing over a lifetime. In this case though they Sculpteo is making the statement of end-use products. In addition I think the parts Tim is looking for are inside the dash which would be the best case scenario for avoiding UV. I did see the TPU option but the parts created in the link I shared, along with their comments, made me think it might be the better solution. BASF is first a materials company though so they should be able to comment in more detail.

"With the CLIP (DLS) Process, we're able to deliver prototypes and end-use products ranging from very small parts that meet tolerance demands to medium parts with precise patterns. CLIP (DLS) enables product designers and engineers to produce polymeric parts that have the resolution, surface finish and mechanical properties required for both functional prototyping and production parts for industries as varied as automotive, medical and consumer electronics."

This is the other material which is a type of TPU printed using "Jet fusion"
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/materials/jet-fusion-material/tpu01/
If you scroll down they have a part which looks similar in design complexity and function to Tim's part. Here's a capture of that part.

Scott

Yes "Jet Fusion" is the JF part of MJF printing, that's the TPU I referenced in an earlier post. Just from a production standpoint, MJF is going to be the higher accuracy more production oriented print process which should yield tighter tolerances and lower price points on the finished part compared to CLIP which is more limited in size and availability.

So I'd recommend prototyping on an FDM with a TPU filament, dial in the dimensions and confirm geometry, and then print for end use in an MJF TPU.

[jp1gt]

I still can not get an answer of how much it would cost to reproduce a small part that you could hold in your hand that would be ready for chrome. this would be instead of doing a lost wax casting. I have a part and want it duplicated.

[jp1gt]

I got the answer. I think this will be the way of the future as far as small parts--

[charles in Dallas]

I am all for crowdfunding to make this happen. In the Kaiser Club, you can pay into the research fund to get a vote on which part is next do a parts run on- 3D printing makes this even easier. The parts are then sold through the club and the funds go do other parts. The parts are discounted for those that pay yearly part research dues. I don't know if people here are in a position to take on the tasks to support and run, but I am willing to put up money to make the parts we need and keep our cars on the road.
It can all be done without money, but funding would be useful.
- Someone or place with 3D scanner or CMM
- Someone or place with 3D printer
- Someone or place with a metal 3D printer
- Someone or people to do the admin work
- Someone or people to build into our website
- A Jedi Council to oversee Part survey, part measurement and requirement, part improvements, budget, part inventory, part backlog
- Cadillac owners and restorers looking for parts
Charles in Dallas (1957, 1978)