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Help needed to get a 472 started after 21 years

Started by rms70, April 12, 2020, 05:18:06 PM

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rms70

The one positive of this virus is it has given me time to work on my '70 deville conv again. In '98 I failed Va state inspection because of a leaking exhaust manifold.I've had the service manual since '92 so how hard could the job be? I've been reading this forum since I found it 2 years ago and will add my testimony that nothing is as easy as it seems and to always have a plan b.It would take a long time to type all the problems and mistakes I've had and made,along with delays caused by kids and work.
Here is a brief history and where I am today.The car ran well in '98 but had the exhaust issue.The intake manifold and both heads had to be removed so broken bolts could be extracted by a machine shop.(I did not break off the bolts--credit goes to the "genius" mechanic my father used back in the '80s)The carburetor was removed and "rebuilt"  by a friend of an electrician I was using at my store although I don't remember why I gave it to him or why it might have been necessary. About 5 years ago everything was basically back together when I read about pre-oiling thru the distributor opening,so I bought the tool.Spun and spun but no oil seemed to get to the rockers thru the rods.Now in the past few weeks I've removed the oil pump, packed it with petroleum jelly, put on new gasket and tried again--same result. Saturday I removed oil sender switch and installed a pressure gauge. Gage read 40psi, spun and spun and maybe got a little flow out of #2 and #4 pushrods. Odd numbers cylinders dry as a bone.I can turn crankshaft by handwrench so went 180 around and tried again--no flow from pushrods --40 psi still on gage. Each spin try was 10-15 minutes. Is this normal? Videos always show oil oozing out of all the rods or spraying  across the room albeit from other types of engines. This step has taken 5 years,your help is greatly appreciated.

MaR

Have you pulled the pushrods and checked to see if oil is coming out of the lifters?

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Your pump is working since you have oil pressure. I would suggest continuously turning the oil pump while slowly rotating the crank. That way you will uncover the transfer ports (my name for the oil passages in the crank and block) while there is oil pressure.
Obviously this will take two people.
By the way #1 cylinder is on the passenger side if that changes the cylinder numbers you were getting oil to.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Scot Minesinger

#3
Rob my zip is 22039, how far are you from that?  A few weeks ago got a 1965 Caddy started - similar issues.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

James Landi

Many narratives abound here of sleeping engines brought back to life.  Having "done" my share over many decades, I think you could "cut to the chase."  Carefully squirt some Marvel oil over the tops of the rockers and down the push rods... figure out a way to depress the valve springs-- if a valve is rusted in position (and stuck) see if you can "un stick it." If the upper end -- valves and push rods are "free," then squirt some marvel oil into the cylinders to insure that there is lubricant on the rings and cylinder walls so they won't scuff the walls.   If you can turn the engine over by hand with a large socket wrench, then spin the engine with the starter.  After spinning it, take a compression test while you've the plugs out.  Record the readings and don't fret if they are not up to 180 psi, as my experience with sleeping engines is that they need to be run, heat up, and get all of the compression related components to "reseat" (i.e. break loose).  Never race a cold engine.  Make sure that your fuel tank and fuel lines have fresh fuel.  Better yet, rig up a safe auxiliary tank, and leave the car's tank and fuel lines for another day.   Hope this helps  James

rms70

Thanks for the replies. The car is in a shed/garage in Alexandria 22302. To answer the questions, I do not want to pull things apart just yet so I can't see the lifters--I never removed them before and I assume the intake manifold will have to come off. I had read about rotating the crankshaft and was doing that but read on some other forum( not specific to cads) that the spinning  tool would not work because it lacked a groove to direct oil to the other side of the engine . Diagram 6-109 in shop manual would differ with this since it shows oil going to right(passenger side-odd cylinders) before crossing over to left side and eventually reaching my gauge.I did not notice any leaks when I did this from any gasketed area.Scot, what happened with the '65?
                                                                            Thanks,                                                                                       

                                                                                         Rob

Cadman-iac

Quote from: rms70 on April 13, 2020, 09:00:41 AM
I had read about rotating the crankshaft and was doing that but read on some other forum( not specific to cads) that the spinning  tool would not work because it lacked a groove to direct oil to the other side of the engine .

Rob,
  This is true for the Chevy big and small block engines because the distributor housing sits in the middle of the oil passage.  If the tool doesn't have a groove in it for the oil to go around the "housing", then half the engine doesn't get oiled.
Not so with the 472. There are no oil passages going around the distributor housing, so priming it with one of those tools works fine.
HTH,

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

TJ Hopland

Do the lifters get oil in every position or is there a point where their feed is blocked?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Cadman-iac

I believe that they are oiled through the complete range of travel, but I'd have to check one of the old lifters to see if the oiling hole is covered at the top of its travel. I'll let you know in about an hour or so.
I think Greg could tell you for sure.  He's an expert on these engines.  He races with one.
But if he doesn't see this,  I'll let you know what I find.

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Scot Minesinger

Rob,

I am about 20 miles from you.  Flatbed it down here and if it is possible to start it, should be able to wake it up.  Does it turn by hand?  I have the tool that connects to oil pump thru distributor (made from another distributor) and it works perfectly. 

What about fuel?  Tank may need to be dropped just to clean it out and gas lines blown out.

PM me.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Cadman-iac

Rob, the lifters are oiled throughout the full travel. I just double checked an old lifter and they have the typical groove around it so that the oil can get to the oiling hole regardless of it's position in the lifter bore.
HTH,
Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Rob,
IF you are getting 40 psig at the sender port continuously and you rotate the engine (at the same time) 5 or 6 times at say 2RPM you will get oil to the main and rod bearings (unless of course there is a major obstruction which I personally have never seen in an engine that has run).  With the bearings oiled you can start the engine and the lifters will quickly pump[ up completely.
That has been my experience and I have started a lot of fresh engines.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

rms70

So if can piece the reply puzzle answers together I should be ok to attempt a start. My concern was the drill mimmicking the distributor shaft was not soaking the rocker or even starting to on the passenger side. I will try to turn the crank again while spinning but I don't understand how oil will suddenly flow to the top side of I try a regular start. That said, one thing I  had been doing for years was pulling the plugs and squirting MOM into the cylinders, so the crankshaft does spin. smoothly and I have seen the springs compress on all cylinders. I haven't done a compression check but I've searched for more than 1 loosely positioned spark plug blown out of it's hole.Last spring/summer I dropped the gas tank,cleaned and sealed it with POR15 gas tank stuff but as of now have not reinstalled it so any start try will come from a gas can.I also need to buy a battery.I have a small business and still am working 6 days a week but it's slow  which is where I have found the time to work on car. Because I'm stubborn and probably stupid I insist on driving it out of the shed just like I backed it in 2 decades ago.I'll keep posting questions and looking for advice.
       

                                                               Thanks,,
                                                                        Rob
     

bcroe

Since you have oil pressure, it might be good to disconnect the
ign power, take the plugs out, and spin it for a couple minutes
with the starter.  That should prepare for a start. 

When those external pumps have no pressure, I bring another
car close and use a high pressure hose (my trans pressure gauge)
to connect together the 2 oil pressure ports.  Run the other car
20 seconds or so and stop to check oil levels.  When you have
pumped a quart over there, you should be well oiled.  Bruce Roe

James Landi

I think, if you've Marvel Oiled the cylinder walls, the consensus appears to be that you'd good to starter spin.  We've discussed on recent start-ups of sleeping engines the efficacy of a compression test now.  I like the idea as you know for certain if you;ve a bent push rod and hung valve... if you have some compression all around, and my experience is not to be disappointed, then squeezing the Marvel oil into the rings is great for them before you ignite it all with a start up.  James