'78 Seville Elegante from the Netherlands

[78Elegante]

Before I start to ask questions I want to introduce myself.

My name is Antoon Rosé and I am from the Netherlands.
Two years ago I bought a '78 Seville Elegante in black/silver (or Sable Black/Platinum Metallic when you talk to insiders  ) in the States that I had shipped. After two years in storage it is now time to get a license for the car and drive it.
Pictures are still online at the seller's website: https://www.specialtysales.com/vehicles/1978-cadillac-seville-13299

I have some Cadillac history. Just over a decade ago I owned two '78 Elegantes which I replaced in '08 with a '92 Eldorado which I drove daily for 8 years.
And some of you may know my website: www.cadillacseville.org which I started a long time ago because no information could be found on the web about the '76-'79 Seville.

There are two reasons for coming to this forum:
- I noticed some very interesting discussions about the electronics in Cadillacs from the 70's
- On my car is a window sticker that seems to be the logo of your club, so this probably means that this car has belonged to a club member and maybe somebody will recognize the car.

So, at this moment I'm preparing the car for the inspection by the Dutch version of the DMV to get a license, so I can legally drive this car on the Dutch roads.
I don't expect many problems but I have some time to go over the car because they don't work because of the current Corona crisis.......

When the car is registered, I want to convert it to LPG (Liquid Petrol Gas). Reason for that is that, even with current low oil prices, 98-gas is almost $6,50/gallon over here and LPG is about half of that.
My plans are to do the conversion in such a way that the originality under the hood stays, so instead of just putting a LPG-mixer on, I want to add a LPG-injection system. In order to do so I will have to make changes to the current EFI and that again is one of the reasons I came to this forum.

Long story, but this will be something for the future. I will start reading and when I have questions, I will add them to the topics about the subject,

[79 Eldorado]

Hello Antoon and welcome to the forum!

It's pretty cool that you had a prior similar car and that the sticker in the window of this led you to this forum. I took a look at the photos in the link and the car presents itself nicely. I don't know who owns it as I'm a relatively new member as well but I suspect someone may recognize it if they see you thread and look at the photos.

On the conversion I cringed a little when I read about it but I would suggest posting that part of the discussion in the Technical part of the forum. There are a few people very experienced with the system on your car. After joining this forum there is one basic thing I did on my '79 Eldorado as a matter of preventing future issues. That was install one of Bruce Roe's external fuel pump relays. I posted a thread on my conversion with pictures. I integrated all of the wiring within the existing terminals. I also bought a spare ECU from Bruce.

Are you thinking of driving it for a while without modification? I think I would strongly recommend that because changing something without some history of how it runs now may leave you with questions regarding any conversion; is it something related to the conversion or was there an issue before conversion.

Scott

Edit: Here's a link to my install of Bruce's external fuel pump relay:
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=153100.msg414525#msg414525

[bcroe]

My experience is with a 79 Eldo, but it shares the same engine and
EFI as the Seville.  If you are going to use LPG, is it already converted
from EFI to a carb? 

LPG will lose some power and likely get less mpg, but you will likely
still be money ahead.  Bruce Roe

[78Elegante]

@Scott: The pictures you saw are 'sales picture' and they present the car better than it is.
Definitely the car is a nice survivor and a good basis for future use, but for sure it is not 'the nicest survivor nationwide at this time' as they wrote.
The reason for me to buy the car was to own a '78 Elegante again in a nice, original condition. I want to have a car that I can use and not a restoration project that keeps me busy for years before I can enjoy it.

When researching the things to be done to do the conversion, I noticed that my car has a remanufactured ECU from Blue Streak Electronics (p/n EM8859).
I know from the past that ECU's can drive you crazy. When it dies, basically your car is dead, I'm sure that in the past a lot of Sevilles have ended on the scrap yard just because of a failing ECU, so it is good to know that there are people out there who can repair them now.

And yes, also because I figured out already that converting to LPG injection is not a small thing, I will drive it on 98 for a while.
Over here in the Netherlands we cannot buy real gas anymore. The best we can get is 98, which has 5% of ethanol and what we call 'normal gas', 95, already has 10% of ethanol.

I will check the link you sent. Thank you!


@Bruce: My car is still original, so it still has the EFI (which for me was an important point in selecting the car).
I already had a fuel leak on the engine when we took it out from storage. And even before reading here, I ordered a set of new injector seals (ACDelco p/n 88865047) which I will install very soon.

In http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=141564.msg346990#msg346990 you write

Before commuting 2000 miles to the GN and 2 other nationals in 2015, I spent 2 solid months getting my 79 Eldo roadworthy again.  There is an 18 page description of adventures here. At the very minimum, take care of tires, brakes, timing chain, and the EFI system, to avoid unrecoverable damage.

Can you share a link to that document? Thank you!

I'm familiar with the 'disadvantages' of LPG. The Sevilles I owned in the past had LPG and I have a 1998 Jeep GC 5.9 with LPG injection.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Lots of LPG conversions in Australia.

American cars were the most converted due to their large boots (Trunks).   I was going to run LPG in my Hot Rod back in 1978, but when I was designing it, there were not sufficient places where I could source it from when away from Hobart.

If they are tuned wholly for LPG, then they aren't too bad, but most people here combing the LPG with the Patrol, which gives a larger capacity for total distance travelled.

Bruce.

[bcroe]

To avoid gas leaks, the rubber and seals from the low pressure tank
pump all the way to the injectors must be refreshed.  Here is what the
original, special in tank hose looked like on my 79 after 4 decades. 
The car still ran if you kept the tank filled up.   

On that round I put a high pressure pump in the tank, eliminating
noise.  The other stuff in the frame was replaced with a simple in
line filter. 

As for the ECU. my advice is carry a spare, and switch them every year
to make sure the backup has not failed on the shelf.  Age kills these as
much as just operation.  Read about 70s Cad EFI problems on the first
album of my PHOTOBUCKET.

     http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/L71/bcroe/

  click on an Album
  click on a picture to enlarge + description

And make sure the timing chain set has been renewed.  I had coolant
seeping from the aluminum intake, replaced it with a 76-77 Seville
iron intake.  good luck, Bruce Roe

[78Elegante]

Bruce and Bruce, thank you for the replies 

@Bruce Roe, so many questions pop up my head when I watch your pictures and read the descriptions.

The main thing for now is that I tried to replace the injector seals yesterday and it was a disaster. Gas is squirting out from everywhere now....... So I only made it worse.
What I noticed was that the seals in the replacement kit are different from the (original) ones that were installed.
I will make some pictures tonight when I will redo the whole operation again.

The fuel pump relay looks like a very smart solution. When I convert to LPG, anyway I will have to be able to switch the pumps on and off, so installing a relay gives me that opportunity.

Another thing is the ECU. What I wonder is if it isn't a better idea to use a modern replacement ECU like a MegaSquirt or equivalent.
To keep two ECU's sounds a bit silly to me and what when there is nobody around anymore to repair them?
I saw that TJ Hopland has an aftermarket ECU in his Eldorado.

[bcroe]

Others have had injector seal issues.  Here is what I found, parts
and procedure.  I tried AIRTEX injector seal parts, but the O rings
leaked fuel.  I found the FEL-PRO ES 72099 kit with 8 O rings & 8
manifold seals are a good fit. HOWEVER, these do not include the
clamp "top hat" or copper washers.

NAPA 2-12086 has all the parts, but only for one injector, so you
need 8 of them. The bad news is, the 2-12086 has a bag inside
which is marked SA-15018, IDENTICAL to the AIRTEX kit, so they
may have the same problem.

I measured rubber diameter and approx outer ring dia
.070" 0.445" FEL-PRO
.065" 0.445 NAPA
.065" 0.440 AIRTEX

My conclusion: use the FEL-PRO for the O ring & manifold seals,
use the others to get the rest of the parts as needed. I tend to
smear some vasoline on the rubber to let it slide into place. I put
4 injectors individually into half the fuel rail, then wiggle the set
into the intake manifold and tie it all together. Trying to push the
fuel rail onto injectors, the O ring would be sheared off and leak.

As for ECUs you could get a USA spare and have me check it out
before sending it on to you, have done this before.  Do not expect
that in a decade, I am well into the most lethal virus age group. 

The problem with a later EFI is the Seville is the last and best of
the analog technology systems, everything starting in 1980 uses
the then introduced digital microprocessor technology.  So just
about nothing can be carried over, you would really be adding a
new system from scratch.  I actually managed to do it, my car
with all new wiring and many other parts added, can run an OEM
or newer ECU.  Even the peak and hold injectors are not compatible
with newer saturated injector drivers, even though some claim they
are.  good luck, Bruce Roe

[jagbuxx #12944]

Bruce and Bruce, thank you for the replies 

@Bruce Roe, so many questions pop up my head when I watch your pictures and read the descriptions.

The main thing for now is that I tried to replace the injector seals yesterday and it was a disaster. Gas is squirting out from everywhere now....... So I only made it worse.
What I noticed was that the seals in the replacement kit are different from the (original) ones that were installed.
I will make some pictures tonight when I will redo the whole operation again.

The fuel pump relay looks like a very smart solution. When I convert to LPG, anyway I will have to be able to switch the pumps on and off, so installing a relay gives me that opportunity.

Another thing is the ECU. What I wonder is if it isn't a better idea to use a modern replacement ECU like a MegaSquirt or equivalent.
To keep two ECU's sounds a bit silly to me and what when there is nobody around anymore to repair them?
I saw that TJ Hopland has an aftermarket ECU in his Eldorado.

I too am feeling your pain! My reseal project is still ongoing. My issue had been with leaks at the pipe rail junctions. I’ve tried it with the copper washers, without, and with 2. With one and tightening the fitting probably too much seems to be the trick.
Also, follow Bruce’s recommendation of the Felpro seal kit, that is what I used along with I think it was an SKF kit to get the top hat washer and copper washers.
My current issue is now the car seems to have a misfire. Possibly an injector not firing or connection issue..it’s always something.

[bcroe]

Those injector connectors are not great for this age, try wiggling
them for a good connection.  I think you can feel them click at
idle, and taking one off ought to cause a change.  What we need
is a clamp on meter that shows the injector pulse is actually
flowing, wonder if a clamp on ign timing light on one wire could
do that?  Bruce Roe

[78Elegante]

To keep discussions clean, I opened a new thread about my injector seal replacement adventure:
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=159819.msg461233#msg461233

[78Elegante]

A quick update:
The Dutch DMV is finally doing license registrations again, so today was the big day that I had an appointment there for the registration.

This means that you can drive to their office with a temporarily license so they can investigate the identity of the car.
Also the VIN has to be stamped in the chassis.

Now the next step is that I have to apply the license registration tax (which is zero because the car is older than 15 years, but I have to apply anyway......) and after that application finally has been approved I will get my new Dutch license.

The last step is the technical inspection (just like a yearly safety inspection). When that is OK, I'm finally allowed to drive and enjoy the car 

[Rotorhead]

Hello Antoon,

I have been to the Netherlands many times. Love it there, my Grand Father was from Enschede. If you need anything don't hesitate to message me.

David Nyhuis