Slow 472 restart slows even further

Started by rms70, May 21, 2020, 10:15:16 AM

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rms70

It took a while to reassemble the things I had pulled apart years ago (vac lines,electrical connectors, hoses, fan). Installed oil pressure gauge, new battery, inline fuel filter, remote starter.  Did a rough flush of the coolant system.  Got fresh gas and some new rubber fuel hose.  Hit the remote starter last Saturday . Engine cranked, not as fast as my minivan.but decently, inline filter filled with gas but no start. Tried several times, checked carburetor, there was gas squirting when I pulled on throttle.  Put in inline spark checker and there was no spark.. Checked coil and resistance was way off so had to order one.  New ac delco ( made in China?)came yesterday, resistance was good (1.9-2.2 ohms) and I put it in this morning.  Hit the remote starter and  it barely turned the engine 1 revolution.  Tried to start with key in ignition and got same 1 turn.  Battery is reading 12.23v and wire to starter positive reads same. Did my starter solenoid go bad in 4 days?  Did the starter go bad?  Can I circumvent the solenoid  to check?  I didn't think this would be an issue this morning,was expecting my reinstalled distributor to be the problem. Any advice is appreciated.



                                                                                                Rob

Dan LeBlanc

12.23V indicates your battery is less than fully charged.  A battery should read at least 12.57 volts to be considered a full charge.

That said, when you hit the starter, what does the battery voltage drop to?  There's your first check.  How old is the battery?
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

TJ Hopland

I assume we are talking about a stock points distributor here?

Remote start meaning you have some sort of button under the hood so you don't have to have someone in the car turning the key?  Or are you talking about one of those fancy electronic wireless dodads ?   Either way I think you need to tell us more about how and where you hooked things up.

Need those answers to guess where to send you next.   

Checking battery voltage of an unloaded system especially something like the starter circuit isn't really telling you anything other than the connection is at least 1% connected.  If you really wanted to test that with a meter the way you would do it would be to connect one lead to the battery and the other at the other end of the cable which would be the big stud on the starter solenoid.  You then crank the engine and see how many volts you are reading.  This test would be called voltage drop.  Lower number is better.  In a perfect world there would be zero volts showing when cranking.  A reasonable drop would maybe be a volt.  Much more than that and you got a cable and or connection problem.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

rms70

Battery is new (or was). Hooked up a 4 amp charger with a display and it's telling me the battery is  between 50-75% charged so I must have  drain somewhere.  I'll give it a few hours and see if it recharges and I'll try again.  Voltage dropped across battery terminals from 12 something to 4 something when I tried to start.  Not sure this is the reading you were referring to. My start switch is the plain Lisle remote hooked up to solenoid red wire and other end to battery p!us. It's a '70 Deville and I have  the shop manual and see some tests on 6-16 and 6-17 I can try.  I'll try charging first.


                                                                             Rob

Dan LeBlanc

Battery voltage when you hit the starter should not drop below 10V.  Battery is toast.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

TJ Hopland

I think I/we have a better picture of your setup now.   4 volts at the battery while cranking sounds like a battery issue.  It should stay above 9 when cranking.   

Based on what we know so far what I would be doing now is disconnecting the neg cable off the battery so we know for sure there isn't something in the car causing a drain and leave the charger hooked direct to the battery.  A 4 amp charger is going to take most of the day to get a decent charge into a half dead battery with no load on it al all.   

If there is an amp or two drain when its hooked to the car you are looking at more like 24-48 hours to charge a half dead battery is why I am saying for now disconnect it from the car so we don't have that possible issue working against us. 

Once you get what we hope is a full charge hook it back up and do your start voltage test again with the meter hooked to the battery.   If it starts good and the voltage stays up we can then focus on seeing if you have a drain.   If the voltage still falls on its face I would try and experiment on other batteries or cars I have around to make sure the charger is actually working or try another charger.   If you got a warranty on the battery and a practical way to claim it just getting a replacement would be an option too.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Dan LeBlanc

You could also take your multimeter out and check for parasitic draw that way.  Disconnect the positive terminal of the battery.  Connect the black wire from the multimeter to the positive cable and the red wire to the positive battery post and set your multimeter to the lowest amps setting.  Key off, doors closed, nothing on, see what the reading is.  Anything more than a few milliamps, and yes, you've got a draw somewhere.  If you do have a draw, take out fuses one by one until the reading drops significantly.  That will identify the circuit you have a bad draw in with nothing on.

Or, the battery could be just plain kaput.  One thing I learned working for Exide was that a battery can show a normal charge and fail under load.  We had lots of warranty replacement, so I learned a thing or two there.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

rms70

It's out of the car and on the charger now and I'll leave it overnight. I just bought the battery at p-boys and I have the receipt if it won't charge.  It's a large battery (27) and it fills up the space. I wonder how many they sell these days to have one in stock for same day pick-up or if it sat on the shelf for years waiting for me?  How would I know that it wasn',t weakened from the start?



                                                                                   Rob

35-709

There is a manufactured date on it some where, or should be.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

TJ Hopland

I don't think a group 27 battery is all that rare yet and a good point was made that there is almost always some sort of date on batteries.   It for sure fits a lot of old stuff and things that are not too cramped for space.   I'm sure there are lots of them in older trucks and tractors and such.   The 34/78 is slightly bigger and fit a lot of things too.  The 27 may even be more common because its slightly smaller and likely fit in some cars when things started getting too cramped for a 34/78.

You have to be careful with Dan's test method listed above.  Its a valid and useful test it just comes some notes that may not be obvious to all.   Some meters just go boom if overloaded and others have internal fuses that may not be readily available.   Just a mistake like a door opening could be enough to overload a meter especially in a Caddy because when you open the door you got lights, buzzer, and if its a coupe the seat back release.   All that on top of the original problem could be several amps which some meters can't handle.

The other thing that could get you in trouble is doing it on the POS terminal.  It will be the same test on either one so why not use the NEG?  The reason the NEG is preferred is the only thing you have to be careful not to hit with the wrench is the POS terminal.  If you bang into anything else nothing will happen.   If you do the POS with the NEG still connected you have to make darn sure you don't come into contact with anything.    If you need to remove the POS after the neg is disconnected the only thing you have to worry about is the NEG terminal on the battery itself.   No big deal if you connect the POS to any part of the car as long as the NEG is already disconnected.   If you are working on a POS ground car then you do the opposite but this one is NEG so NEG first.

Another way you can go about that sort of test is with light bulbs.   If there is a load the bulb will light.  The larger the draw the brighter the light.   IF you overload the light it gets really bright before it burns out.   Meters can be cheap these days but light bulbs like a tail light are even cheaper.  Only slightly tricky part is you need some sort of socket or other method to attach wires to the bulb. 

A note about using the meter is usually you need to move one of the leads to a different jack on the meter.   Good practice is to NEVER leave the lead in that jack.  As soon as you are done taking that reading move it back to the regular jack.    The reason you never want to leave it there is for that kind of a test the 2 wires are basically shorted together.  This means if you hook it to something with power like you normally do to check voltage you are going to get a bang.  How big depends on what you thought you were gonna measure.   Flashlight (torch for Bruce) battery no big deal but a car battery or line voltage (mains for you metric people) is going to be a light show at the least.  Basically same result as if you just connected the meter lead by itself.   

Other thing is some meters will have notes on those terminals saying what the range is for each connection.  Sometimes the usual voltage connection will be able to read a couple hundred milliamps which isn't much and something like a Caddy door being opened would likely be too much.   Other meters may have the option where you move to a different jack and possible selection and you may be able to go up to 5 or 10 amps which is more like you would be looking for at first.   This 10 amp option where you have to move the lead is the one where you don't want to leave it there and forget.

Last tip is when I haven't had an assistant or felt like doing all the walking I have used jumper cables to extend that battery to meter connection so I could see the display while I was in the fuse box or under the dash messing with stuff.  The light bulb would work like that too. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

rms70

Couldn't do anything Friday but got back to it today.  It took  probably 36 hours to fully recharge battery. Hooked everything up and starter was quick and smooth ( seemed a little slow last week) but there was still no spark.  With a new condenser and points finally got a spark in my inline checker but when I turned the ignition key to run it cranked but wouldn't fire.  Pulled on the throttle a few times, cranked some more but no go. Opened choke plate slightly, cranked engine a few times and '''whoosh'', an atomized charge of fuel shot out of the carb. I had the distributor in and out several times in the past and thought I had installed it TDC on #1 cylinder (or close to it) but I'm not sure what's going on. If anyone has suggestions or advice it is appreciated, just please  type slowly so I can understand.



                                                                           Thanks

                                                                                   Rob

The Tassie Devil(le)

Check the voltage to the coil whilst the engine is cranking.   There should be full 12 Volts, as there is a separate 12 Volt source from the Starter Motor, and when the key is released, it reverts back to the Resistor Voltage, like 8 Volts.

If there is no 12 Volts, then there is a problem with the Starter circuit.

There should possible be 2 wires attaching to the connector on the + terminal on the Coil.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

TJ Hopland

Remember #1 on these engines is on the right side which is different from most of the other classic American engines.

Unless you want to take a valve cover off the easiest way to know if you are on compression or exhaust stroke is pull the spark plug on the hole you are after and bump the engine over with your finger over the spark plug hole while looking at the timing mark.  Because #1 is on the other side from the timing mark on these engines I do this using #4 which is the other cylinder that the timing mark aligns on. 

So my way would be to pull #4 spark plug.   Remove the coil wire or leave the distributor cap off so you don't get anything unexpected.   Get positioned so one finger is over #4 hole and I can see the timing mark.   Keep bumping the starter while watching the timing mark.   Observe if you feel any air pressure on your finger as the mark comes around.   If you don't go around again and then you should feel it.   If you are not sure go around again to be sure.   The idea is to get the engine to stop with the mark fairly close to aligned when you feel the pressure.

This will mean that #4 is on the compression stroke.  This means you now want to have the rotor pointing at the distributor cap terminal that is connected to the #4 wire.   Notice I said terminal with the #4 wire, not physically pointing at #4 cylinder.   The distributor doesn't know or care what is were.   If its not pointing at the #4 terminal you can 're stab' the whole distributor or move the wires around while keeping the correct firing order.

That should get it close enough to start at which point you can time it with a light.   This is assuming that you are getting a spark which is another thing to trouble shoot.   You could do all that with #1 if your arms are long enough or you have an assistant,  mine aren't and I'm usually working alone so I use #4.

With the neg / points wire disconnected from the coil are you getting voltage at the + terminal on the coil with the key on?   You would put the red on the + of the coil and the black on a good ground point.   There is a resistor wire but with no load other than the meter it won't make a difference.  If you are not getting battery voltage let us know and we can go down that path next. 

The reason I said to disconnect the - wire is if the points happened to be closed or there is a short there and the key is on that will mean there is power flowing to the coil and it and other things like wiring switches and connectors are going to be stressed.   In theory nothing too terrible should happen but that was when everything was a little younger.   Stress isn't good for old things. 

If there appears to be voltage you can hook a ground to the - and see how much it drops.  This would simulate the points closing.  It will drop because of the resistor wire but I would expect it to be above 9 if you are just doing short bursts. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

rms70

Saturday morning---followed TJ's recommendations and pulled #4 plug and reset distributor, battery had been on charger and was 13+v, fuel line was in 5 gallon container and return line was in a smaller 2 gallon container ( pulled the tank out last summer cleaned and sealed with POR tank stuff but really need to get car out of shed to get it reinstalled) and put high temp hose over exhaust and thru a hole I cut in back of shed wall.  Cranked engine with remote to prime fuel line then turned key to run and hit starter again...it started right up!  Oil pressure went to 40 and held steady and choke worked it's way open. Checked exhaust and it started out real nasty looking but cleared up. Engine sounded ok, not really sure what strange noise I should be listening for, and there was a lot of smoky stuff which I assume was 20 years worth of sprays burning off the exhaust manifolds and heads. Had engine running for about 15 minutes and the smoke mostly cleared up. I thought I had the old Craftsman dwell meter /timing light here but it must be at home so I can't adjust anything now but i will note that the 5 gallon container was about  3 gal and the return container had over a gallon in it. Is that normal?  Irregardless, I'm happy it  restarted without killing the engine or me.                    I


                                                                                          Rob                                                     

TJ Hopland

Awesome news.  Gets you one step closer to a drive?  Things should only get better once you are able to dial in the dwell and timing.

Check your engine oil level and give it a smell for gas test.   That is about the only place gas could have gone that you would not have seen.  If the level and smell is normal then I would assume you burnt a gallon.  Where it can possibly leak is through the fuel pump which attaches to the crank case.

I have never tried to measure how much gas flows through the return but what you observed seems reasonable.  For testing if it would make things easier you can just block off the return line from the fuel pump.   Its mostly there for keeping a flow going to reduce temps.  Blocking it should not effect pressure.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason