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60 CDV Fuel Pump Question

Started by Michael Petti, June 08, 2020, 01:34:03 PM

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Michael Petti

Does anyone have suggestions for a brand of mechanical fuel pump that will last or a fix for the Carter that I have. In the last 11 months I have been through 3 fuel pumps. 2 Aertex pumps, the second was bad out of the box, and now a Carter. The problem is always the same the front valve pulls out of the casting stopping fuel sucking from the tank. Yesterday the Carter pump popped and flipped the valve upside down in the bowl. I put it back, but it went into it's place in the casting so easily, I know it's going to pop out again.  The first Aertex lasted 3 years. The Carter has about 400 miles on it. Any advice is appreciated.

Dan LeBlanc

Just take a flathead screwdriver and hammer and stake it in place to keep it from popping back out.  It's a common problem with this pump design.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Michael Petti

I guess I'm not exactly sure what "hammer and stake "is. I'm willing to try it.  Can you describe the procedure for me? Do I place the flat blade on the edge of the valve?  Do I push it straight down, or on an angle?

Dan LeBlanc

This should give you an idea of what needs to be done. 

http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,366338

Basically, you want to mar the metal at a couple of points around the valve in the pump body to hold it in.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

59-in-pieces

Dan,
Spot on.

Let's see - Cadillac and Corvair - strange bed fellows - say hello to my little friend.

Have fun,
Steve B
S. Butcher

Michael Petti

Difference I see is that Caddie pump will have to be taken out to do this where as Corvair looks like it wqs  just disassembled.

Dan LeBlanc

It can be done in place on the car with the top removed. 
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

fishnjim

Any thoughts on the cause of this, rather than just ascribing to brand?

The airtex 713 that worked just fine on the '58 previously, did this recently, valve popped up, during re-start after setting for some time.   It's a change of design from OEM, so I'm not convinced it's a "brand" issue as much as a design/manufacturing/operational one.   
I suspect some adhesive/thread sealer/epoxy(fuel resistant)/replace the valve, might be a better solution.  Depends on a press fit and any malformation of the seat will leak affecting lift.
I staked it back in, but didn't seem to "take", so I bought another.   This time I primed the pump/carb before starting.  Pulled gas through the line to make sure was clear/full and pumped up the fuel bowl/carb before attaching to pump.   
So far so good.   The small head of gas over the valve must help hold it in/prevent.   I didn't note which side popped unfortunately.   Might be related to pumping a compressible(air) vs a non-compressible(gas) issue?   

Jon S

My recommendation would be to find an original AC fuel pump and have it rebuilt by  Cadillac parts Limited rebuilders in New Jersey. Mike is great. Mention my name.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Scott Halver

Hello Michael,
I have gone through 4 mechanical fuel pumps in 8 years, 1st was a re-built GM pump, the next two Airtex #713, and the 4th an original GM fuel pump rebuilt last November by a highly recommended company on the east coast.   I have a back-up electrical fuel pump via a loop and an electronic module to shut the electric pump off if the engine stops by Revolution Electronics.   I fought putting an electric fuel pump on the car wanting to keep it all original.  After being towed 3 times I gave in to the electric fuel pump.   My intent is to use the electric fuel pump to prime the carburetor or if it is really hot out may be to keep me from vapor locking (Arizona-  high temps).   I asked the last rebuilder if he thought there was any problem using the electric fuel pump (Carter 4-5 lbs max) and the mechanical together ……… he said no, the fuel from the electric fuel pump should just push past the one-way check valve.

The 4th mechanical fuel pump quit working about 6 weeks back.   I've been running on just the electric fuel pump.   I can't bring myself to install another mechanical fuel pump.   I do believe that Dan is right, that if we "stake" the valves correctly, that will fix the problem AND I am glad to hear that he believes that you can do it on the car.   On my 3rd failure, I opened the pump cover and found that the check valves had popped out.   I tried to "stake" the check valves.   I was successful on one valve and on the other valve I must have damaged the diaphragm because fuel would not flow through after I was done.  So, I need to either practice on my pile of junk fuel pumps or find someone that feels expert in "staking" check valves.  I am very interested in how your fuel pump saga goes.   SHalver #24920  1960 Eldorado Seville
1960 Eldorado Seville, Grandfather Bought New
1970 Corvette Convertible 350/350

fishnjim

I'll contact Airtex and see if they're aware of the problem and what they think might be going on here.   They have a vested interest to sell more pumps, but they are getting scarcer.   They used to be local stock, but this last time it came from some far off warehouse.
From what I recall, the push rod operated pumps had more issues and were eventually dropped. 

Michael Petti

I did not realize this was such a common problem. I certainly have a variety of suggestions here and am considering them all. I suspect the new pumps just are not made very well.  I will probably try the Loctite first as it seems I could do the least damage.  Wanted to keep it original but driving a car with a time bomb in it is not realty and option. May have to go to electric pump as backup. I'll keep everyone posted.

fishnjim

Here's what Airtex sed;
James, sorry to hear that you have experienced a problem with you 713 fuel pump, I can say I have not heard of this issue.  Airtex was bought about a year ago by a much larger company, that company already owned Carter Fuel. Over the past few months, there has been a consolidation of the two fuel companies. The 713s shipping today are the surviving Carter design. The company is working hard to get all images and data changed. The Airtex 713 that you would receive today is equivalent in operation and spec to the old Airtex deigned pump. I do not see a concern with the Carter designed pump # M3019 for this issue either. Sorry for any confusion that this may have caused I will document your concerns in my log.

Please Note My New Email Address
Thank You,

Brad Rossano
Technical Service Specialist

Net: appears, there is no longer a choice...   I linked this thread to this guy, so maybe some action will occur.   


Michael Petti

The fact that they are the same now explains why both fail the same way with the same frequency. I guess the fact that most of these pumps go into cars that are not driven on a daily basis masks the high failure rate. My first Carter lasted 4 years on a car driven about 2 thousand miles a year. The last three pumps longevity was measured in weeks. By the tone of Airtex's response (corporate speak) I don't think things will get better.

fishnjim

I think you started a "jinx".   
I went down tonight to run the '58 to charge up the battery, since I've been working on house projects.   Liquid was spraying on the windshield and smoke coming up?   So I shut it off.   
The new fuel pump was wet with gas.   I tightened all the top end screws, they were all loose.
Then I noticed the fuel bowl leaking, too.   I'd changed the filter on restart.  Wasn't leaking before.  One of the carbs was seeping at the gasket.  I'd retightened once already.   So getting all the gremlins out is a never ending.   It was OK, the last time?   Maybe it's vibrations, thermal cycles.   Pump seems to work ok makes pressure.
Got my work lined up...

Michael Petti

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Going to try your fix with the Loctite Blue today. Good luck on your projects.

Michael Petti

Did the repair with Blue Locktite 243. It is gasoline resistant and does not need priming. Blue 242 does need priming. It ran fine for a couple of hours so maybe all is good.

Scott Halver

Michael,
Thank you for following up with your success.   Use of Blue Locktite sounds easier/safer than "staking the valves".  If I had the fuel pump off the car with no gasoline, staking the valves might be a stronger fix.  I hope you can go years with no problems !!

Take Care, SHalver #24920
1960 Eldorado Seville, Grandfather Bought New
1970 Corvette Convertible 350/350