LaSalle 3 Speed Guidance

[39Flathead]

Hi all,

On the cluster gear I know there are thrust washers at either end riding on the countershaft. On the input shaft side of the trans I have the single red/orange thrust washer. On the tail shaft side I only had 1 thrust washer that was maybe twice the thickness and seems to be made of a layer of the red/orange material backed by steel. Is this washer directional? I have the red surface against the gear face and the metal side against the case. Am I missing another component? Is this the correct setup?

Hard to get a picture because of how tight the space is. Sounds a bit rough when I turn it by hand but it's also turning dry without oil yet.

Thanks

[Jay Friedman]

Your rear washer may actually be 2 stuck together, but I think you have it right.  As far as I know the red surface (or washer) is against the gear face and the steel against the case.  Best you contact Tom King, the guru of these transmissions.  I haven't been in touch with him for some years, but his email is thekingco1947@aol.com

[39Flathead]

Your rear washer may actually be 2 stuck together, but I think you have it right.  As far as I know the red surface (or washer) is against the gear face and the steel against the case.  Best you contact Tom King, the guru of these transmissions.  I haven't been in touch with him for some years, but his email is thekingco1947@aol.com

Much appreciated. Sent out an email!

Right now I have the orange thrust washer against the gear face and the steel washer against the case, but in the build thread I followed on JalopyJournal it was done the other way. So either they are bidirectional, mine is backwards, or the build thread is backwards...


I think the sounds may just because the trans has been without oil for probably 5-25 years. I have a gallon of 80W90 I'll pour in and see how it changes.

[Jay Friedman]

I consulted the 1935-55 Cadillac parts manual and the '50 Oldsmobile (used the same transmission) shop manual, both of which have an exploded diagram of the transmission showing the steel washer is against the case.  I've seen that build thread on JalopyJournal and, in my opinion, the photo I think you are referring to has it backwards.  In any case, I just remembered that Brad Ipsen who is in the Cadillac-Lasalle membership directory in Washington State also knows the transmission perfectly.  I suggest you ask him. 

[harry s]

I just replaced seals, gaskets and a bearing in my '37 transmission. In this application the orange or bronze washer goes against the case. There is a small tang on the washer that fits into a slot in the case that keeps the washer from spinning. I'm not sure if the later transmission is the same.      Harry

[39Flathead]

I just replaced seals, gaskets and a bearing in my '37 transmission. In this application the orange or bronze washer goes against the case. There is a small tang on the washer that fits into a slot in the case that keeps the washer from spinning. I'm not sure if the later transmission is the same.      Harry

I have the tang only on the input shaft side of the trans. The output shaft side of the cluster gear was a smooth washer, no tang.

[39Flathead]

I consulted the 1935-55 Cadillac parts manual and the '50 Oldsmobile (used the same transmission) shop manual, both of which have an exploded diagram of the transmission showing the steel washer is against the case.  I've seen that build thread on JalopyJournal and, in my opinion, the photo I think you are referring to has it backwards.  In any case, I just remembered that Brad Ipsen who is in the Cadillac-Lasalle membership directory in Washington State also knows the transmission perfectly.  I suggest you ask him.

Appreciate it, I'll reach out to confirm!

[Jay Friedman]

I would think the cluster gear and countershaft set up in Harry's '37 floorshift version is the same as the '38 and later column shift versions of the transmission, since aside from the shifting mechanism they are the same transmission.  So, what Harry wrote sounds right and I guess I had it wrong.  I could partially take apart a spare transmission to have a look, but.....

On the other hand, I just consulted Brad Ipsen's write up on disassembling and assembling the transmission.  He writes "Start counter shaft through read end of transmission.  Install bronze thrust washers in place.  The larger tabbed washer goes at the front and the steel washer plus bronze goes at the rear.  The steel washer goes next to the case and comes in different thickness to adjust clearance.  Cluster gear clearance should not exceed 0.018".  Place cluster gear into position" etc., etc.

On the other hand again, the '49 shop manual just says to install the bronze thrust washers at both ends and the steel washer at the rear without specifying whether the steel washer goes next to the case or next to the gear face. 

Maybe it's best to hear from Brad first.  Jack Hoffman should know this too, but his name is not in this year's membereship directory.

[Jay Friedman]

39Flathead,

I found Jack Hoffman in the directory after all.  He is very knowledgeable about all mechanical aspects of Cads of that era.  His email address is jehcih@charter.net

Brad Ipsen's is brad@ipsengarage.com

Let us know what you find out.

Jay

[39Flathead]

Thanks I'll reach out to them and reply back when I hear.

Additional problem I'm now facing. My bellhousing only lines up with 4 bolt holes. How did anyone else resolve this?

[Bob Schuman]

The holes in the back surfaces of the block may indicate your block was a WW2 military engine, and those holes would be for the water cooling of the hydramatic used in military applications. If that is correct, it may explain why the block and bell housing bolt holes do not all line up. The photo does not let me see whether it may be possible to drill and tap for the needed bolts. On passenger cars there are six block to bell housing bolts.

[39Flathead]

The holes in the back surfaces of the block may indicate your block was a WW2 military engine, and those holes would be for the water cooling of the hydramatic used in military applications. If that is correct, it may explain why the block and bell housing bolt holes do not all line up. The photo does not let me see whether it may be possible to drill and tap for the needed bolts. On passenger cars there are six block to bell housing bolts.

Yes this block was a military engine. Has anyone run one of these with a manual trans or is that not done?

Attached picture with flash. You can see that the top 2 bolts, and the next bolt down on each side line up fine. The 2 bottom thru holes on the bellhousing don't match up with...well anything.

[Jim Stamper]

     My 37-60 coupe has a military engine.   Jim Stamper #13470

[Jim Stamper]

    I am almost certain Steve Passmore wrote of this as he had several of the tank engines and 36-41 were his years. Maybe search Steve on the forum for his comments. It seems like guide pins must be removed or some such thing.  Certainly many hundreds have been used in cars since WWII. The very subject has been discussed before. Jim Stamper#13470

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

I just verified the washer set up on the counter shaft and as Jay quoted is correct.  It is sourced from the 1940 Manufacturing Information which was a document from engineering to the factory floor.  If anyone wants the rewrite of the shop manual on the trans email me at brad@ipsengarage.com.  It is now up to Rev 3 with the latest addition from Bob Schuman about O-rings to seal the counter shaft and reverse shaft. Also I still have a few copies of the 1940 Manufacturing Info.  Night time reading for many nights.

[Jay Friedman]

I had forgotten about the Manufacturing Information books.  I have the one for 1949 as well as the 1940 which Brad kindly sent me years ago.  The 1949 book says on page 7-B-7:

8. Lubricate countershaft before assembling....to prevent scratching roller bearings while sliding shaft in place.  Insert countershaft through rear boss.  SLIP STEEL THRUST WASHER AND THEN BRONZE THRUST WASHER OVER END OF SHAFT.  SHAFT TO BE FLUSH WITH BRONZE WASHER. 

9. HOLD FRONT THRUST WASHER IN PLACE AGAINST BOSS MAKING SURE THAT TONGUE REGISTERS IN SLOT.  INSERT COUNTERGEAR [CLUSTER GEAR] IN PLACE AND PUSH COUNTER SHAFT INTO POSITION, THUS REMOVING THE DUMMY SHAFT.  ROTATE SHAFT WHILE PUSHING INTO PLACE.

Note: a dummy shaft 7 1/8 inches long and 1 inch in diameter, made of any metal or wood, is first inserted into counter gear to hold roller bearings in place before assembling the counter gear assembly into case. 

[LaSalle5019]

This is my 1939 trans laid out when disassembled.  The thrust washers are laid out as if they fell off the ends of the countershaft, with the up side against the shaft and the down side against the case.
Scott

[39Flathead]

And now somehow an additional issue. Had the whole thing done and ready for install. I flipped it over to mount it on the bellhousing just to check fit. This morning I was messing around and tried to spin the input shaft to find it locked solid. Gears shift as normal but no rotation.

Begrudgingly I took it apart and found the issue.

This shaft used to spin freely to the best of my knowledge...now it seems to be seized solid. I tried tapping the shaft through but also not sure how to remove it. Looks like it needs to be pushed out from the inside of the case and that doesn't leave much room to get any leverage. Would the output shaft need to be removed to get that shaft out? Is there something obvious I've missed?

Thanks

[39Flathead]

And now somehow an additional issue. Had the whole thing done and ready for install. I flipped it over to mount it on the bellhousing just to check fit. This morning I was messing around and tried to spin the input shaft to find it locked solid. Gears shift as normal but no rotation.

Begrudgingly I took it apart and found the issue.

This shaft used to spin freely to the best of my knowledge...now it seems to be seized solid. I tried tapping the shaft through but also not sure how to remove it. Looks like it needs to be pushed out from the inside of the case and that doesn't leave much room to get any leverage. Would the output shaft need to be removed to get that shaft out? Is there something obvious I've missed?

Thanks

In the spirit of finding my own solutions I've cracked this one. One of the bolts connecting the tail housing to the trans case didn't have a washer. I guess not having the washer let the end of the bolt go through the case and touch the idler gear. Reinstalled the bolt with the missing washer and everything spins fine. Problem resolved.

[harry s]

I had the same problem with my '37. Put the trans together all but the tail shaft housing. Everything worked  as it should shifted great, spun nice and smooth. Then when totally assembled with T/S housing all locked like a you know what. It was that T/S housing bolt with no washer. The '37 also has a bracket that attaches  to two of those  T/S/H bolts. With that bracket and the washer in place life is good.      Harry