Pre-war (up to 1942) Voltage Regulator Problems

[39LaSalleDriver]

This is a curious one for the electrically minded.

To begin with, in order to save time, yes I know to set the polarity before starting. I also know the ammeter is more of a general guide than any sort of calibrated gauge.

For some time I've suspected my voltage regulator was acting up. At idle it hangs more or less around the middle mark. Bounces over to the "charge" side once in a while, dips down to "discharge" side when appropriate like when I turn the headlights on.

So far, so good. But...I started noticing that on occasion it pegs over to "charge" and stays there for considerably longer than I think it should. I've never timed it, but we're talking minutes worth with no load other than the engine running. So I started pulling over and popping the hood and giving the VR a rap with my knuckles and it would cut loose and go back to the center mark.

Determining that perhaps the points in the VR were sticking, I decided to order a replacement which is a "Standard" brand (made in USA) and install it to see if that takes care of the problem. Figure I'd keep the old one as a replacement for the parts bag.

The new VR is installed, and now the gauge only goes up to about the 1/4 mark on the "discharge" side. Turn the headlights on and it dips down even further and only nudges up to the 1/4 mark on occasion. This worries me that perhaps it is defective or isn't charging at all. I drive a bit at night and the last thing I need is my headlights sucking my battery dry on the way home.

So now I get to thinking maybe I should clean the contacts on my old VR and put it back on the car, which is what I have done. The contacts were actually pretty clean, no evidence of arcing or pitting that I could see anyway, but I hit them with some fine emery cloth nonetheless. Put it back on the car and the ammeter is back to where I "think" it is supposed to be, but I'll have to see if it's still doing the pegging routine.

So does anyone have any thoughts of what I'm dealing with here? Am I just being paranoid and the pegging is just it's normal cycling? Is my new VR defective, or perhaps mis-adjusted?

Everything I can find talks about a sticking VR resulting in a pegging to the "discharge" side so I'm pretty much at a loss as to what is going on. I'd like to get to the bottom of it and effect a definitive repair, rather than a temporary cure of the symptoms and hoping it doesn't bite me when I don't need it to be doing so.

[jackworstell]

Please clarify...with the new VR....does it charge at all   ie is the ammeter ever on the
"charge" side of the mid-mark on the gauge ?

Also...I never clean points with anything rougher than fine crocus cloth...I think I read in the
Delco Remy manual that anything rougher than this could damage points
I've even heard of just using "rice paper"

The ultimate check is battery voltage......with either of the VRs....are you able
to sustain the correct battery voltage ( something like 6.3 volts for a "six volt" battery)  ?

Jack Worstell

[wrench]

First, the theory about cleaning points is to use an ignition file as abrasive cloth will leave small pieces of abrasive which could contaminate the contacts. That’s the theory anyway.

Another theory employed here is ‘malletization’. This technique was employed successfully to identify that the issue was most likely with the VR and not the Ammeter. It is unclear if the ammeter was ‘malletized’ as part of the troubleshooting. This is commonly performed using one of the digits of the applicable on side hand to the face of the indicator starting with a ‘light tap’ and sometimes progressing to ‘breaking the glass’ by using a knuckle.

A third theory employed here is that new stuff is junk. I support this theory.

So the regulator points were ‘cleaned’ and we don’t really have confirmation that the fault was cleared.

We need this confirmation in order to assess the issue.

Now, further to the ‘sticking points’ thing, points can stick for other reasons than contact face arcing. There is the electrical connection interfaces and there is a spring and there is a hinge point. So rapping on the VR does not identify the root cause of the ‘sticking points’ merely isolates the issue to something in the VR or the connection.

It is possible that undoing and redoing the connection resolved the issue. Or that manipulating the VR in the six degrees of freedom in 4 dimension space once it was removed from the vehicle changed the state of inertia of the problem. Thus it may be cleared temporarily or permanently, but it’s an unknown unknown at this point.

That’s it, I’m out of bluster...

[harry s]

This kind of issue can drive one nuts, especially when you have a new replacement part that gives a obviously bad reading. The best thing to do is take the generator and VR (both) to a shop that is familiar with old stuff for testing as a unit. We have a couple of those type shops nearby and neither will test one component without the other. The other thing you can do is wire up a voltmeter or more accurate ammeter.     Harry
PS I remember the old time mechanics saying never use anything more course than a dollar bill for dressing points.

[fishnjim]

One for Sherlock Ohms!

Missed year/model this is on?

Put a direct reading volt gauge on it or voltmeter, if none.   (I recommend for all VR/gen cars)   Don't pay too much attention to the charge/discharge gauges.   Designed for those who don't care and to drive all others crazy.(my opinion - not debatable)
First tell;The "gen" light(if equipped) should come on with ignition when it's powered but not running and go out once it turns.  if it stays on, got a problem.
Watch the volts and it should output(increase) above 12.6 - climb up to ~16 - if really low, and come on when it's below 11-12 or so.   If not, it's not charging the battery.  The VR can be adjusted to change these values, but don't mess with it.   Battery can be an issue too, won't accept a charge.   So always check battery first, to make sure it's good - ie, weakest point.  If the circuit doesn't have enough power to perform, it can't possibly work right.   Check the battery and gen/VR leads too for proper positions and condition/not burnt , frayed, etc..   Some gens have an external "condenser"(capacitor) to prevent points from burning.   These typically don't get changed, but should. 
Take to auto electric shop, if stumped.

[35-709]

   This is a 6 volt system, underneath the OP's original post you will see --- Jon Isaacson
                                                                                                               1939 LaSalle 5019

[Alan Harris CLC#1513]

For a 6 volt system, just cut the 12 volt numbers in half. I vote for finding a good electrical shop and having check the generator and regulator together as a pair.

[39LaSalleDriver]

Okay, bunch of inquiries to address...

Pis the ammeter ever on the "charge" side of the mid-mark on the gauge ?

No. Not even close. As I mentioned, it hovers at the 1/4 mark at idle, goes down with headlights on.

Pis the ammeter ever on the "charge" side of the mid-mark on the gauge ?

Also...I never clean points with anything rougher than fine crocus cloth...I think I read in the
Delco Remy manual that anything rougher than this could damage points
I've even heard of just using "rice paper"

By the time I posted this it was a done deal. I used 1000 grit for a moment or two. Can't imagine it would be irreparable but it is what it is for now.

The ultimate check is battery voltage......with either of the VRs....are you able
to sustain the correct battery voltage ( something like 6.3 volts for a "six volt" battery)  ?

I haven't had a problem in the past, but I'm going to swap out batteries and check voltage today.

First, the theory about cleaning points is to use an ignition file as abrasive cloth will leave small pieces of abrasive which could contaminate the contacts. That’s the theory anyway.

Unfortunately my point file wouldn't fit in the space available.

A third theory employed here is that new stuff is junk. I support this theory.

I tend to largely subscribe to this theory as well. The VR I have been running is vintage NOS, the replacement is newly made, supposedly in the United States. Sadly, the availability of decent vintage NOS parts for this era of car is drying up at a shocking rate. New "junk" is by default becoming only option.

One for Sherlock Ohms!

Missed year/model this is on?

Put a direct reading volt gauge on it or voltmeter, if none.   (I recommend for all VR/gen cars)   Don't pay too much attention to the charge/discharge gauges.   Designed for those who don't care and to drive all others crazy.(my opinion - not debatable)
First tell;The "gen" light(if equipped) should come on with ignition when it's powered but not running and go out once it turns.  if it stays on, got a problem.
Watch the volts and it should output(increase) above 12.6 - climb up to ~16 - if really low, and come on when it's below 11-12 or so.   If not, it's not charging the battery.  The VR can be adjusted to change these values, but don't mess with it.   Battery can be an issue too, won't accept a charge.   So always check battery first, to make sure it's good - ie, weakest point.  If the circuit doesn't have enough power to perform, it can't possibly work right.   Check the battery and gen/VR leads too for proper positions and condition/not burnt , frayed, etc..   Some gens have an external "condenser"(capacitor) to prevent points from burning.   These typically don't get changed, but should. 
Take to auto electric shop, if stumped.

Yes, this is a 6v positive ground system on a 39 LaSalle, but I have a 42 generator/VR setup. I am wondering if the battery is (or at least part) of the issue as well. I'm going to tinker around today and swap out the battery to see what happens. It is an Optima red top that I put in about 2 1/2 years ago. It has never given me a moment's problem and it's never failed me. However it could well be coming to the end of it's effective service life.

[z3skybolt]

USNTar,

Did you buy the new made in the USA Voltage regulator from Brinkman?  I bought one there a few months ago.  Made in the USA premium model something like $95.00.  The had a "standard" model for far less but not U.S. made.  Just wondering so I could be on guard .

Bob R.

[bcroe]

The new VR is installed, and now the gauge only goes up to about the 1/4 mark on the "discharge" side. Turn the headlights on and it dips down even further and only nudges up to the 1/4 mark on occasion. 

That ammeter should be centered when off, definitely move into the
charge side with some rpms, or you are SOL.  At least 7V should result
with charging, charge but rather low voltage is a battery problem. 

The problem with those old systems is getting good parts.  Time was the
junk yard was full of them, and I stocked up for my cars.  Now days its
enough to make you want to alternate.  good luck, Bruce Roe

[LaSalle5019]

I have the opposite problem on my newly rebuilt 1939 LaSalle. Charging at 8.5-9.5 volts. I’ll be interested in other options...anyone making a solid state unit that can be hidden under the cover of a original VR?

[39LaSalleDriver]

Okay. I swapped back to the old VR and the gauge reads more or less in the middle as it should at idle, except it's still wanting to peg to the charge side on occasion. I also swapped out the Optima battery I had in there for another and it doesn't make any difference. I also took that Optima battery to a parts store to see if I potentially had a cell burning out. No issues there to note so I'm going to put it back in.

At least now I know the battery isn't the issue. I still strongly suspect the VR is the problem, (it was a vintage Echlin VR57), and that the new Standard VR is worthless.

However, for my next step I'm going to put a meter to the generator to see if it's acting up. I just had it rebuilt back in August so I can't imagine that being the issue, but one never knows. If everything rings true with it, it HAS to be the VR I would think (all new wiring harness two years ago as well).

USNTar,

Did you buy the new made in the USA Voltage regulator from Brinkman?  I bought one there a few months ago.  Made in the USA premium model something like $95.00.  The had a "standard" model for far less but not U.S. made.  Just wondering so I could be on guard .

Bob R.

No, I got one of the Standard brand ones for $65 from Rock Auto. It is plainly stamped on the VR "Made in USA", but these days I don't know who or what to trust anymore in that regard. I think I'm going to send it back and get one of the Brinkman jobs you mentioned.

The problem with those old systems is getting good parts.  Time was the
junk yard was full of them, and I stocked up for my cars.  Now days its
enough to make you want to alternate.  good luck, Bruce Roe

Yup. Buying old ones can be dicey too. Never know how they've been stored etc., etc., etc.

I have the opposite problem on my newly rebuilt 1939 LaSalle. Charging at 8.5-9.5 volts. I’ll be interested in other options...anyone making a solid state unit that can be hidden under the cover of a original VR?

That's what I'd like to see too.

[jackworstell]

Check the wire that goes from the F terminal on the generator to the
F terminal on the VR.   If anywhere along this wire there is an intermittent
short to ground....you will correspondingly see intermittent high charge

And I suppose inside the generator if there is a bare spot on the lead from the field coil
to the F terminal.....causing intermittent short to ground.......likewise there would be intermittent high charge

And check the F terminal on the generator...is the insulator for this terminal in good shape ?
That is....see if the terminal itself is  intermittently shorting to ground

Jack Worstell

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

I just went through this with our 55. Old regulator seems to have died after glove box left open while on a Battery Tender. Got a new one (BWD from Advance because I had a 25% off coupon and free shipping) and it overcharged. Figured it was just a bad new one so got another and had the same problem. Contacted them and they talked me through adjusting it. You don't adjust the point gap, you adjust the spring tension (at least on this one). So maybe contact the company and ask them.
Jeff

[39LaSalleDriver]

Check the wire that goes from the F terminal on the generator to the
F terminal on the VR.   If anywhere along this wire there is an intermittent
short to ground....you will correspondingly see intermittent high charge

And I suppose inside the generator if there is a bare spot on the lead from the field coil
to the F terminal.....causing intermittent short to ground.......likewise there would be intermittent high charge

And check the F terminal on the generator...is the insulator for this terminal in good shape ?
That is....see if the terminal itself is  intermittently shorting to ground

Jack Worstell

Thanks Jack, that is some interesting info I hadn't seen anyone talk about. Specifically the F terminal potentially causing a high charge rate to show. I will definitely be checking into this. I can't imagine the wiring to be faulty as new as it is, but I don't want to leave any stone unturned.

USNTar,

Did you buy the new made in the USA Voltage regulator from Brinkman?  I bought one there a few months ago.  Made in the USA premium model something like $95.00.  The had a "standard" model for far less but not U.S. made.  Just wondering so I could be on guard .

Bob R.

After doing some studying on it, I decided to NOT order the Brillman (which I think you meant) VR. According to them, their VR isn't listed as being designed for either the generator or VR that I have (1102693 generator; 118202 regulator). Now it is possible that they just didn't list my numbers as an oversight, and it may well work fine for my application, but I decided to be better safe than sorry. Likewise, the generic Standard brand VR-1 one I bought and tried to install just may not be as "one size fits all" as I had been lead to believe. Either way, I decided to go with a known quantity that specifically lists my application. So I ordered one from USAutoElectric which did list my numbers. It cost me a few extra bucks, but I have been told they are a top notch US made supplier. We'll see how it works out I guess.

While I plan on going through everything I can, I ultimately am still convinced the VR is the problem. The reason I say this is the symptoms of the pegged charging were manifesting themselves right before my generator went out last year (or at least that's when I first noticed it). Some of you may recall that I had taken a long trip and was having an overheating situation. On that run, I specifically noticed a inexplicable correlation between the pegging of the temperature gauge AND the ammeter at the exact same time. It didn't make sense, but my main focus was the overheating situation and I felt the ammeter issue wasn't a priority at the time. Before it was over and done with I had to have the generator rebuilt because I had tightened the belt too much in a desperate attempt to keep (I thought) the water pump pulley from slipping. Because pegging of the ammeter hasn't consistently proved much more of a problem until recent weeks, I just hadn't followed through on remedying that.

So what I do know for fact now is that I was having a problem with the ammeter pegging in August of last year. I had the generator rebuilt for a different reason, but the problem still persisted after the rebuild. I have driven it for several more months and noticed that sometimes the ammeter pegs, sometimes it doesn't. I learned that if I pulled over and gave it a rap with my knuckles it would bounce back down to the middle of the gauge for the time being. Getting tired of that routine, I decided to solve the problem. The situation with the ammeter existed both before and after the generator rebuild so I can't imagine that the generator is the source of the issue but will check as best I can.

I have changed out the battery and the problem persists, so I know it isn't the battery. The wiring is essentially new, so again, I can't imagine that being the problem but I will attempt to verify. If everything else checks out, all that leaves is the VR. The one I got from RockAuto doesn't even come close to showing a solid charge on the ammeter. Obviously something isn't right with that one so I'm sending it back to RockAuto. The vintage Echlin one I have works as normal other than the occasional sticking problem which I am trying to cure.  Cleaning the points on it didn't work so I now have to wait to get my new one from USAutoElectric to see if that fixes the situation. Meanwhile, I'll continue checking the wiring and generator to see what that turns up.

[bcroe]

You might connect a volt meter as suggested, maybe one that just
plugs into the lighter socket.  If you see it jump up in unison with
the ammeter, its the VR or related wiring.  No voltage change, the
ammeter is at least suspect.  Some use a shunt connected to a more
sensitive meter, a poor shunt connection could cause a high reading. 

good luck, Bruce Roe

[harvey b]

I had a similar problem on my 37,it turned out to be the fan belt was loose?,felt tight but was too long and didnt keep proper tension on it,i did install the right belt and it seems better now,might be something to look at,you never know. Harveyb

[Daryl Chesterman]

[quoteOn that run, I specifically noticed a inexplicable correlation between the pegging of the temperature gauge AND the ammeter at the exact same time. ]

[/quote]

Mr. Isaacson, I suspect that the correlation of your temperature gauge pegging and the ammeter acting up at the same time is a good clue to the problem.  I think there is a short, possibly in the temperature gauge wiring, or a wire that is shorting to the temperature gauge wire that is causing the problem.  That kind of short would signal to the voltage regulator that there is an increased load on the electrical system, causing the generator to have an increased output.  By rapping on the ammeter, if the short is behind the ammeter, this momentarily causes a disconnect of the short.  I don't know what the ease of access is to the back of the instrument panel, but it might be worth starting the car and reaching up under the instrument panel and moving the wires a bit and see if it affects the ammeter.  Only an educated guess 

Daryl Chesterman

[z3skybolt]

 USNTar,

I sent you a private message concerning the regulator from UsAutoElectric. I am interested in the claim that it is specific to our generators.

Thanks,
Bob R.

[39LaSalleDriver]

You might connect a volt meter as suggested, maybe one that just
plugs into the lighter socket.  If you see it jump up in unison with
the ammeter, its the VR or related wiring.  No voltage change, the
ammeter is at least suspect.  Some use a shunt connected to a more
sensitive meter, a poor shunt connection could cause a high reading. 

good luck, Bruce Roe

I'm going out of town for a few days, but I'll take this under consideration when I get back. Hopefully my new VR will have arrived by then and I can verify if I'm on the right track or not.

I had a similar problem on my 37,it turned out to be the fan belt was loose?,felt tight but was too long and didnt keep proper tension on it,i did install the right belt and it seems better now,might be something to look at,you never know. Harveyb

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure that's not the problem. Note my comments about having to have the generator rebuilt because I kept tightening it up, because I thought the water pump might be slipping. I keep very particular about belt tension now, but if the new VR doesn't work, I'll definitely revisit it.

Mr. Isaacson, I suspect that the correlation of your temperature gauge pegging and the ammeter acting up at the same time is a good clue to the problem.  I think there is a short, possibly in the temperature gauge wiring, or a wire that is shorting to the temperature gauge wire that is causing the problem.  That kind of short would signal to the voltage regulator that there is an increased load on the electrical system, causing the generator to have an increased output.  By rapping on the ammeter, if the short is behind the ammeter, this momentarily causes a disconnect of the short.  I don't know what the ease of access is to the back of the instrument panel, but it might be worth starting the car and reaching up under the instrument panel and moving the wires a bit and see if it affects the ammeter.  Only an educated guess 

Daryl Chesterman

Interesting observation. To clarify, I've never knocked gauge loose by hitting the ammeter itself, just the voltage regulator. Under the dash I can tell you the connections are all tight and clean. Now I won't say the wiring WITHIN the gauge in the cluster isn't shorting out in some way. Something worth investigating if I can't track anything else down. Makes me wonder if the temperature sensor itself might be causing the issue? I don't know. That is one thing I've never replaced.