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E10 Fuel

Started by als58caddy, June 29, 2020, 11:56:06 AM

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als58caddy

Hey,

has anyone on here have experience of using E10 fuel blends in their older Cadillacs. We currently have E5 blends here in the UK but E10 will be taking over more from next year. I have read up some info on the E10 blend and it doesn't look like its 'kind' to older systems and carbs.

As i'm currently restoring my '58 it would be good to get a heads up on any issues that have come up and what best materials to use for fuel lines, types of rubber and any issues with carbs etc.

Any pointers or help greatly appreciated :)

Cheers,
Alasdair
1958 Cadillac 4 Door Sedan
2005 Alfa Romeo 156SW 1.9JTDm
2005 Alfa Romeo 147 2.0TS

TJ Hopland

Some areas of the USA have had E10 for 30 years now.  I am in an area that was among the first to get it so we got to do a lot of the testing and there wasn't much support for resistant materials.    Those of us that were in the early wave of that were quite amused when in the last 5 or so years it hit the last few areas and those people thought the world was ending.

Early on there were a lot of issues on the handling and distribution side of things were the mix would be off or they got water in it but that side of the industry got things figured out so its rare to have those issues now.   If you were doing E5 they should be used to the handling and mixing and such so I would not expect any issues. 

My opinion is if you have a reasonably clean fuel system with the hoses that are not too old you should be fine.  Hot days increased chance of vapor lock and if you don't use the fuel it will go 'bad' quicker than if it didn't have any ethanol in it. 

Worst combination is to have a dirty fuel system with old hoses and hardly ever drive the car.   You could maybe get a way with that with no alcohol but introducing alcohol into that mix will for sure cause problems. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Alasdair,

If you can get straight petrol, then buy that for as long as you possibly can.

Anything with an Ethanol blend will give you increased fuel consumption and not be good for your car.

I use basic Unleaded Petrol in my '72, and supplement that with some Octane Booster to suppress the pre-ignition problems that come with higher compression.   My car originally has a factory listed Compression Ratio of 8.5 to 1, but I have increased it to around 10.25 to 1 through the rebuilding process.

Bruce. >:D

'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

James Landi

I have experienced and observed with other unfortunate individuals an issue referred to as fuel separation.  Apparently, if your fuel tank is not full, if you don't use your car regularly, and if you store your car where there are large swings in temperatures, condensation occurs inside the tank, and water accumulates at the bottom of the tank.  Molecular bonding occurs with the ethanol content and then a liquid forms that is not flammable.  A sufficient amount of this terrible liquid can create a host of challenges, including the dreaded fuel separation in the carburetor where that separated liquid  will eventually evaporate and leave a solid slug of light brown crud in your idle jets that only a large volume of compressed air applied to the jets can remove.  All this is to say that if you use your automobile occasionally, and you store it in the winter, FILL THE TANK.  As mentioned above, old neglected aka weak rubber fuel lines seem to split and leak air or drip...  Hope this helps, James 

The Tassie Devil(le)

#4
Quote from: James Landi on June 30, 2020, 07:14:16 AM
A sufficient amount of this terrible liquid can create a host of challenges, including the dreaded fuel separation in the carburetor where that separated liquid  will eventually evaporate and leave a solid slug of light brown crud in your idle jets that only a large volume of compressed air applied to the jets can remove. 
G'day James,

Thanks for the enlightenment.   Now I understand just why the fuel system in my boat was so bad when I started to work on it.   It hadn't been used for many years before I purchased it, and all through the fuel system was this light brown crud.   I even had to separate the fuel tank to get it all out, then have it re-galvanised.   It even filled the tank float.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   I know it is not a Cadillac, but it is the Cadillac of boats, a Chris*Craft (in my signature).
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

James Landi

Bruce,

I could go on and on and on about fuel separation in gas tanks and fuel lines and  especially that brown crud in carburetors... Gum Out does NOT break that crud in idle jets, and one can have a smooth running engine that simply can not idle--- the result is maddeningly frustrating for the owner and any mechanic who tries to fix the problem by fiddling with the idle jets.   On several occasions, I came to realize that the only "fix" was compressed air through the idle jets, and then observe the brown crud flushing through the jets. Alas, as you know Bruce, those tiny idle ports are located at the bottom of the carburetor, and that is where the crud settles and "cakes" over time. SO, if it won't idle, and the engine won't respond to idle jets adjustments, compressed air carries the day.  James

The Tassie Devil(le)

This stuff.

My fix was replacement of the float, and manually cleaning out the Carby, and everything else.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

35-709

And we can thank those that have no idea what they are doing, but have the power to do it anyway, for this ethanol mess we have to deal with.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

hornetball

One of my favorite YouTubers comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEf9Fdvx_Sc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvS_D4_lF5U

If you can get ethanol-free with appropriate octane, you should (I can't here).  Other than that, best advice is to drive regularly to keep fuel fresh.  Good luck, and I am truly sorry for this particular export of bad policy from the USA.

als58caddy

Thanks guys for the replies and the info, much appreciated! I'm replacing the fuel lines and any rubber sections so at least that will be in good condition by the time E10 comes in over here.  I'm not sure what condition the tank is in though, when the engine was running there wasn't any crud in the filter bowl or carb so hopefully the internal metal in the tank is in fairly good condition...

We have the E5 blend over here at the moment and E10 may be coming in from next year though haven't been able to find any dates yet. Though most info over here says E5 will be around for a while yet...maybe i should just drive her more when she is back on the road :)
1958 Cadillac 4 Door Sedan
2005 Alfa Romeo 156SW 1.9JTDm
2005 Alfa Romeo 147 2.0TS

Hillbillycat

We have both E5 and E10 in Germany for some years now, as well as some stations selling high prized non ethanol gas.
I use E5 and add two-stroke oil with no issues. Won´t switch to E10 unless I´m forced to do so (though loew gas prices for E10 are tempting).

The Tassie Devil(le)

Actually, any amount of E in front of a number is bad in petrol, be it E5, E10, or E85.   Especially if one doesn't drive that much and might take 6 months to require a fill-up.

When I ran my Dragster on straight Alcohol, which is Ethanol, I had to flush out the whole system with petrol after EVERY meeting.   It was a pain but it gave me more bang for my buck when using it, and I used more than twice as much each meet than what I would if I ran Petrol.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Scot Minesinger

I have been running the ethanol fuels through my 1970 Cadillacs for 15 years now and over 50k miles total with no issues whatsoever.  The 1958 engine is a high compression type built with all iron and designed for leaded ethanol free fuels just like the 1970 Cadillac engine.  It should be fine.

Qualifying my answer, I never let the car sit for more than two weeks without running it (winter salt), and in the summer the Cadillacs are almost a daily driver.  Plus I keep them in top repair.  All the rubber that the gas sees has been replaced with modern hoses and gaskets that work for ethanol fuels.  Also I only use premium.  My Cadillacs are set to factory specs and they never knock or run oddly.

It seems that often other problems and especially vacuum leaks are blamed on modern fuels.  Usually ethanol is a scapegoat for a myriad of issues unrelated.

As a side note obviously if leaded non-ethanol (or just non-ethanol) fuels are available, it may be best to use them as long as you can.  This business of buying special fuels and using additives is for the birds.  If I cant drive with pump gas I'm done.

Filler up with premium unleaded with ethanol and enjoy the drive.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

39LaSalleDriver

I'm pretty much with Scot on this. By no means am I any sort of chemist or fuel expert, but from what little I've looked into additives and my own personal experience, they don't do a lot. Would I prefer to run 100% gas? Absolutely. That is not realistic for me though from a convenience or financial standpoint. I run E85 all the time and have noticed no inherent problems that I can identify. I have also run 100% gas through my LaSalle and noticed no performance difference. Oh, maybe a tad bit better gas mileage, but nothing worth writing home about. Now, to be up front about it, I also have a new tank, new Nicopp lines, rebuilt fuel pump, carb, and other bits with E85 compatible rubber. I also drive mine quite a bit so it doesn't sit for weeks without being run. Maybe I'll have to have those components cleaned or rebuilt more frequently than if I ran 100%, but it's worth the trade off for me.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

James Landi

THe "take away" on all of this is, as follows: Keep the tank full when the car is in storage-- don't hesitate to throw in some fuel stabilizer during extended storage times, and finally, you may encounter some ethanol fuel separation in the carburetor-- in which case, if your car won't idle well, blow out the idle jets with compressed air.    Happy day, and be of good cheer,  James

TJ Hopland

I would say the take away is if all you can get is ethanol fuel is you need to drive more.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Scot Minesinger

Yes, true disuse is really a depreciating factor with these old cars.  And they were not engineered to stay unused for extended periods.  These cars seem most reliable when driven regularly now and back in the day.  Although they could sit for a while and be OK, but best to be driven regularly.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty