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1980 Eldorado CA emissions

Started by RossJ, August 13, 2020, 04:08:14 PM

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RossJ

Hi Everyone,
First time poster and Cadillac Owner here. Recently bought a 1980 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz that I hope to register in CA. It has the Cadillac L61 368 engine with fuel injection. I have recently read that the 1979 and 1980 cars that came into CA only had the 5.7L Oldsmobile engine. I am trying to confirm that the 368 engine was not sold in CA, as it did not meet the 1980 CA emissions standards.
If that is the case, will my car have any chance of passing the current CA emissions requirements ? The car is original with a rebuilt fuel injection system. If unlikely, what options do I have ?  Thanks in advance for any advice or comments.

TJ Hopland

You are correct that a 1980 Eldorado sold in CA would have had the Olds 5.7.    Someone who lives there now will have to answer the questions about bringing a non CA into the state today.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

79 Eldorado

Hi Ross,
I second what TJ wrote but I can confirm the 5.7 Liter was carried over in CA only because it could meet CA emissions. You could try to see what happened in 1981 (For sure the 5.7L was no longer available in '81). I suspect the 368 was used in CA in 1981 so possibly the certification wasn't ready when the 80's came out. Someone here might be able to comment on the differences from 1980 to 1981. There was a post around a year ago which listed all of the ECU PNs. Some were likely CA only so maybe it wasn't certification but time required to workout an ECU before the 80's were planned to be released together with an overall brand new system for GM in '80... just too much to bite-off all at once. So I have no idea what would happen if you go to get it "smogged" but I suspect if '81 was certified you would probably have the same system if you used an ECU for CA only from a 1981.

And that said I spent a month in the San Diego area around 2000 and I saw what I recall was a 1968 Dodge Charger with a blower sticking out of the hood and a narrowed rear end driving around Encinitas. I can say when I saw it, knowing cars in CA do need to be tested, how is that possible? I assumed maybe there was an exception for cars older than a certain age.

I'll be curious to hear what you find out. If you want to search for that old thread with the ECU PN chart try looking for something on a 1981 Eldorado with a burned out or "Fried" ECU or ECM. I think I recall the theory was that occurred due to a sticking solenoid for the cylinder deactivation so you may also want to keep that in mind.

Good luck and welcome to the forum,
Scott

bcroe

Yes the 81 was the 8/6/4 engine.  Good luck getting a 49 state
car with 368 approved in Cal.  Had a friend with a house in another
state, he never registered a car in Cal when he lived there. 
Bruce Roe

RossJ

Thank you for your comments TJ, Scott and Bruce. It was from reading some comments from Bruce on a different topic, that made me realize that I might have a CA emissions issue with this motor. Hence this post. CA emissions exempt cars from year 1975 and older, so that does not help. The classic car community in CA have been lobbying to get this changed, but to date have had no success. As TJ said, maybe someone with the 1980 368 motor or the 1981 368 8-6-4 motor, who lives in CA with CA plates on their cars, might be able to offer a solution. Maybe a change to a 1981 ECU is a possibility. I will look into that too.

bcroe

#5
An 81 ECU is not the answer, changing over to an 8/6/4 car is
a massive undertaking.  It would be a lot easier (for me at least)
to change to an EFI Olds engine, but even that might not work if
the VIN shows it is the wrong engine. 

Here in IL they just checked idle emissions, I got a 403 engine
(never used in an Eldo) to pass with far lower emissions than
my carb cars with the same engine.  Possibly a 368 with new cat
and timing chain, everything well tuned, could pass 1980 if no one
notices it is a 49 state.  Bruce Roe

TJ Hopland

I'm surprised we don't have someone from CA yet to explain this to us yet.   Seems hard to believe that every car that is less than 44 years old in CA started out there.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

RossJ

Thanks for the additional comments TJ and Bruce. The seller is trying to help me find a solution too. He suggested one option might be to replace the fuel injection with a carburetor. Sounds simple enough, but I am sure there are other factors to consider. Any thoughts on this option.
Also, I have just found out, that for the classic car folks in CA, there is an assembly bill (AB2225) that was submitted in February 2020 by Assembly Member Grayson. The bill has a provision to allow historic vehicles that are 25 years or older to be exempt from CA emissions, provided they apply and qualify for a California Historical vehicle license plate. Voting on the bill has been delayed due to Covid 19, but rumor has it might get voted on this September or October. If passed, it might be a solution for me and many others. Not holding my breath on this one, but you never know.

David Greenburg

Have you tried to call DMV? They are not as scary and unhelpful as you might think.  You leave your number with them and they call you back, so you don't sit on hold forever, and the people I have spoken with have usually been very helpful.  Although the issues I have had have been registration issues; the cars I have questions about have all been old enough to be exempt from emissions requirements.
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

TJ Hopland

I can't imagine a major change like going from the EFI to a carb would help or be legal in any state especially since a carb was never an option for that engine and year.     If any kind of swaps are legal it usually has to still be an option for that model and usually same year or newer then it has to meet that systems requirements.   

An example of that would be that since 85 was the last year for that body style that you could swap the complete HT4100 drive train and electronics from an 85 over to your 80 and then it would have to pass the 85 emissions standards.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

bcroe

I've got it, put in a 5.7L Diesel engine.  These are exempt from
testing some places.  Its easy later to put in an Olds 350 or 403
(legal 49 state engine in 1979) when the law changes, ask me
how I know. 

I will be glad to sell the special diesel flex plate and filter mount
used with the TH325.  Bruce Roe

79 Eldorado

Asking the DMV seems like a good idea. They may not know though because all they likely require is proof it passed the CA smog check. It still doesn't hurt to ask.

What about asking a smog shop if they know what they would need to pass it? Hopefully it's not as difficult as we think. The CA test is an actual test of tailpipe emissions so it might be just a matter of passing the standard for 1980. You could try to fine tune a carburetor but I suspect using a modern aftermarket EFI system would make it easier to hit the numbers across all conditions.

It seems like there must be a way because even cars coming from outside the US can go through a certified shop, receive the appropriate changes, and be legal in the US so you would think as long as the swap meets that same criteria it would be possible (maybe it must be done by a certified shop?). In 1980 CA simply carried over the 1979 version which was the EFI Olds 350. So the proper set-up in CA for a 1980 would be an Olds 350.

Scott

RossJ

DMV can be hit or miss. Usually ok when it is straight forward, not so good when handling something out of the norm. Having said that, we have contacted them and given them the VIN and are awaiting a reply by email.
Engine change to a diesel - above my pay grade. Got a perfectly good Cadillac engine in it, so maybe just need a sympathetic smog guy and a bit of luck.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I read somewhere on the forum , that the rear wheel drive Cadillac’s of 1980 with the 368 engine had carbs, just the front wheel drive cars were fuel injected.
Thanks for comments.

TJ Hopland

1980 Cad engine lineup was:

Olds 5.7 V8 diesel -  Standard Seville and optional on everything but CC and limo

Olds 5.7 V8 efi - Standard for CA Eldo, option for CA Seville

Cad 6.0 V8  4bbl - Standard on all RWD cars

Cad 6.0 V8 DEFI - Standard on non CA Eldo,  no cost option on non CA Seville

Mid 1980:

Buick 4.1 V6 4bbl - optional on all but CC and limo.

1981

Olds 5.7 V8 EFI was completely gone

Cad 6.0 V8 8-6-4 DEFI  Standard all models, no cost option over the standard diesel on Seville

diesel and V6 optional on all but cc and limo


I know all the V6's had computers on the carb,  the 6.0's may also have had computers for 80 too. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

79 Eldorado

I was tired of guessing so I just decided to search for the California emissions rules for a 1980 vehicle and I found he following: "1960. Exhaust Emission Standards and Test Procedures -1980 Model Passenger Cars, Light-Duty Trucks and Medium-Duty Vehicles. 13 CA ADC § 1960BARCLAYS OFFICIAL CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS"

Here's the link (It's long and sometimes the forum has trouble with long links due to word wrap):
https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Document/I6F1254002DDD11E197D9B83B68A61150?viewType=FullText&originationContext=documenttoc&transitionType=CategoryPageItem&contextData=(sc.Default)

I couldn't capture the entire document in one capture. There are some added notes and even a formula below this table but I suspect a modern aftermarket EFI system on your 368 could likely pass the requirements. I wouldn't mess with a carburetor only because I think your chances of success are lower.

If the link gives you an problem use Google chrome and type these search terms. The link I went to should be the first suggestion:
california emissions requirements for 1980

Scott


TJ Hopland

I don't know that a modern aftermarket EFI system would do any better than a working 80 DEFI system.   Maybe the aftermarket one would be a little easier to manipulate but it would be a lot of work to change over.  Tons of 'little' things that are different that would take time and money to make work.

If its just a 'sniff' test I would take it in and see if it passes.  If it doesn't be sure to note or get a printout of the readings and which one failed.   With that info a little research should give some ideas what needs to be addressed and or manipulated to pass.   I remember back when we had a test and I was dealing with 70's and 80's cars there were tons of tips and tricks you could do if things were close that would usually result in a pass. 

If its not just a sniff test then I don't think you will have any sort of swap options other than to swap addresses or cars.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

RossJ

Thanks Scott for the link to the DMV for 1960 Emissions standards for 1980 vehicles.
The car will not be in CA for a few months, so I have time to look at possible solutions, as suggested on this thread. At the end of the day, it’s a matter of fronting up to a CA smog station, see what happens and take it from there. Appreciate all the comments everyone.

79 Eldorado

Ross,
Sure no problem I'm happy if it helps. TJ had a very good point. I think I saw the same info as he referenced. I recall it is very important to know the actual values because like he stated there are certain things you can do to improve different aspects of the inspected criteria.

Before even bringing the car I would visit a smog station and ask what they actually need to do other than the tail pipe (is that it?). In some places, normally places where tail pipe isn't part of the routine, they need to verify all of the original emission related equipment is on the car. If that included something tying it back to CA emissions, which your car never even had, that could be an issue. If it's simply meet the standard then there's a chance you may pass and even if not you will have the data to guide you. I mentioned the modern EFI only because I thought perhaps it may have an advantage in that you can override the basic program on some of them and select a custom air fuel ratio for example.

When I bought my '79 one of the reasons I got a '79 was it was the only year I knew at the time I could trust regarding the original engine selection. I've learned since the 368 should have also been on my radar screen. Having had both 3spd and 4spd versions I would only trust the 3spd as well. Back to the 368 my understanding now is that cylinder deactivation is easily disabled. There has been at least one case of frying the ECU/ECM discussed on the forum attributed to that system so in my mind it needs to be disabled or if not addressed with regard to load making it back to the ECU. I'll be the first to admit I don't know the system well but from what I gather something sticks associated with a solenoid resulting in higher current which gets back to the ECU. The ECU is not sufficiently protected and not capable of handling it. That same thread also seemed to reveal there is nobody really repairing them (for now I believe you can still buy them though). For the '76-'79 Bruce Roe, who also replied here, is very good at diagnosing and repairing issues.

You should post some photos if you have them. I would be interested in seeing it. What color combination is it? How many miles? Where is it coming from?

Good luck and let us know how it goes,
Scott

RossJ

Hi Scott. Thanks again for your thoughts. This car does not have the 368 with the cylinder deactivation. That came out in 1981.
Here are a few photos. The car has been professionally repainted about 17 months ago and had quite a lot of money spent on it. Original 51,000 miles and 4 owners. East Coast car, but no rust in the body and the underneath has been power washed and treated to prevent new rust forming.
I was planning on buying a 1985 Buick Riveria, but saw this car and changed my mind. Thought I would “upgrade“ to a Cadillac. Hope I made the right move.

cadillacmike68

I hope you can get it all sorted out. Or, find a relative in another state who can title and register it there.

CA - I'll never live there.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike