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Disc brakes on 40's era Cadillacs

Started by VandalRon, September 15, 2020, 08:42:47 AM

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VandalRon

Anyone change out there drums for discs? Did you use a made to order system (like Fatman) or scavenge parts from donor cars? If so who? Have you done front and rear? If so, did you change out the brake booster?
Did you replace the suspension or just rebuild the original? If so from whom?
How about the steering, was that replaced with rack and pinion or some other steering system or was the original rebuilt?

Quentin Hall

Don’t  go down the road of restomod if it’s a decent original car. Just rebuild all the components to factory specs. They drove and stopped like silk back in the day.... and can again. Perhaps consider a dual master cylinder. I’ve never had lack of brakes on a properly restored system.
53 Eldo #319
53 Eldo #412.
53 Eldo #433
57 Biarritz
53 series 62 conv
39 Sixty Special Custom
57 Biarritz

dinhnguyen57

I agree with Quentin.  I'm certainly not an expert, but from my reading, drum and disc brakes are equally effective.  The only advantage to disc brakes is there are no fade with repeated braking that you may get with drums. 

You are driving a heavier older car with skinny tires and changing type of brakes won't change those variables. 
1941 Series 62 coupe
1959 Eldorado Seville
1990 Allante
2007 Mercedes S550
2009 STS
2018 Chrysler Pacifica

Jim Miller

CLC member Art Gardner makes a bracket that fits most (I believe) 40's Cadillacs that will allow easy installation of a Wilwood dual master cylinder. I have it for my '41 and '49. They stop just fine.
Jim Miller

1941 6219
1949 6237X
1970 CDV
2021 XT6
Past:
1991 SDV
1999 DeElegence
2006 DTS
2013 XTS
2016 SRX

LaSalle5019

Quote from: Quentin Hall on September 15, 2020, 04:57:17 PM
Don’t  go down the road of restomod if it’s a decent original car. Just rebuild all the components to factory specs. They drove and stopped like silk back in the day.... and can again. Perhaps consider a dual master cylinder. I’ve never had lack of brakes on a properly restored system.

+1 on Quentin’s post. After a new (original) brake system, my 1939 LaSalle stops great and I have no problem driving in modern traffic.
Scott

Jay Friedman

I agree with Quentin Hall and LaSalle5019.  My '49 stops fine on its original brake system.  I also agree with Jim Miller.  See if you can obtain one of Art's dual master conversion kit.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

harry s

I also agree with Quintin. The drum brakes when dialed in work fine. In today's traffic people tend to tail gate and charge the stop lights, signs, intersections. Not a good practice with the oldies. Another consideration is the power assist, you just have to remember to push harder to compensate. Both of these are driving techniques that need adjusting when driving an originally equipped antique.      Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

39LaSalleDriver

Add me to the originalist list. My 39 LaSalle brakes work just fine as they came from the factory. I can't control other idiots on the road, and yes, there is a chance I could get involved in a wreck. That's just part of driving any car, and I don't see that disk brakes are going to be any better insurance that it won't happen. Awareness, and paying attention to what you and others are doing is about the best (and cheapest) thing you can do. Admittedly, I wouldn't mind installing a dual master cylinder rig though.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

VandalRon

Good stuff guys, I'll certainly consider your points. I would like to inquire about the dual master perhaps that will ease my concerns.
I have wondered about simply rebuilding the original front end with new parts.
My car seems to run fine but I am a bit concerned about cracks in the flat head. I'd hate to invest in restoring the car to original and then find out I have engine issues later on. I am considering pulling it and having it magna fluxed. If the engine is fine then I'll probably keep it "stock" and then have the transmission rebuilt as long as it's out.

LaSalle5019

Quote from: VandalRon on September 17, 2020, 06:16:09 PM
My car seems to run fine but I am a bit concerned about cracks in the flat head. I'd hate to invest in restoring the car to original and then find out I have engine issues later on. I am considering pulling it and having it magna fluxed. If the engine is fine then I'll probably keep it "stock" and then have the transmission rebuilt as long as it's out.
If it runs fine then why, I ask, would you want to spend a bunch of money to tear it apart and put it back together? I think all the block cracking discussion scares people away from a very fine engine.  These engines were not chosen to be put in GM's top of the line cars from 1936-1948 and in the M5 Stuart and M24 Chaffee tanks because they were prone to failures.  On the contrary, they were well designed, good performing and durable engines. They beat the hell out of them in the tanks.

Now, if the cooling system is not properly maintained then they will corrode just like any other cast iron engine and radiator. Yes, it's the same cast iron used in other engines, not some special rust prone alloy.  Assuming you don't maintain the coolant....if you allow that corrosion to build up in the cylinder block, particularly the drivers side of the block, and never clean it out, yes this engine is prone to trap more of that rust and cause higher temperatures back in #7 cylinder, which is why the temperature sensor is placed over that cylinder in the head. If it runs hot, then this is probably the reason why....poor maintenance, block sediment, corrosion and sediment in the radiator.

If you run the engine out of coolant and grossly overheat it, it is prone to crack in the valve seat area to cylinder or between valves.  When it cracks it will let you know - loss of coolant, over pressurizing the cooling system, missing in a cylinder, etc.

There are a number of simpler things you could do to both clean out the block and test for any crack/valve/head gasket issues.  Remove the freeze plugs and flush it out or, if you are a risk taker, follow the block flush service procedure which requires removal of cylinder head bolts. To check for block cracks, watch for coolant loss over time, run a simple compression test, then pressurize each cylinder and check for noise/bubbling in cooling system.  Personally, I would worry more about snapping off a head bolt then having a crack in my block if it is running fine.

Just my two cents...
Scott

bcroe

My 62 brakes stopped the car just fine on a sunny day.  After driving thru
some pretty awful standing water and rain storm, I had to do emergency
braking and they threw me into the median. Only luck prevented damage.
Are you only driving in sunny weather? 

I have a few more brake stories from a million and half all weather miles,
dual master cylinder and front discs saved me more than once.  Bruce Roe

LaSalle5019

Lots of discussion on brakes but keep in mind that the tires really do all the work.  Support the car (vertical support), accelerated and decelerate the car (longitudinal support), turn the car (lateral support). Tire construction and tire compound have a huge influence on ride, handling, traction and braking. I switched to radials in my '39 LaSalle for better ride, less wander and superior emergency handling and wet road performance.

To Bruce's points:
Dual Master will allow you to still brake after a brake line, jounce hose or wheel cylinder/caliper failure.
Disc brakes will not fade as easily during long or hard braking.
Not sure either of those technologies would make my car stop any better - unless a part failed, I was trailering or lived in mountainous terrain.

ABS was the single biggest improvement in braking technology.

jyinger

I agree with Bruce Roe.  I guess Bruce and I are in the minority.

I have four 1942s, four 1949s, a 1952 Fleetwood and a 1958 Eldorado Brougham.

All except the Brougham have Diamond Back steel-belted radials, all have dual master cylinders, and all have front disc brakes.

No accidents yet.  Knock on wood

Jon Yinger   CLC#26643
Jon Yinger

Glen

My father taught me that after going through water on the road, immediately apply the brakes lightly to eject the water and warm them up.  Then they will be ready when you need them.  I still have the habit, drying the brakes on my modern cars. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Cadman-iac

  I had many,  many miles of pleasurable driving in a car with the original braking system in place. Until that day when I had a steel line break, and then it wasn't so pleasant.
I managed to get the car stopped,  but it was scary. Thankfully the master cylinder was full of fluid.
Disc brakes are great, but not absolutely necessary,  but a dual master cylinder is a very good idea.
If I had to pick just one modification that I could make to my car, this would be the one.

  Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

bcroe

Quote from: Glen on September 18, 2020, 01:47:27 AM
My father taught me that after going through water on the road, immediately apply the brakes lightly to eject the water and warm them up.  Then they will be ready when you need them.  I still have the habit, drying the brakes on my modern cars.

I also learned to do this, dragging the drum brakes in the rain.  But in this
particular incident, in a rain storm with wet roads, I had to drive through what
appeared to be a puddle on the entrance ramp.  What it really was, was a
giantic pot hole filled to the top, and it managed to soak the brakes on one
side of the car.  A few seconds later as I was merging, someone cut me off like
I was not even there, and I had to slam on the brakes before there was any
opportunity to dry them.  That is not my only story.  Bruce Roe

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Ron,

I to am a fan of changing out older brakes for Disc Brakes as if one wants to drive the car a lot, and keep up with modern traffic, then one needs really good brakes.

Originals are okay in normal situations, like slow cruising, where everyone is just doing the same slow speeds, but not for any sort of modern driving.

I feel that since they removed Asbestos from Brake Linings, drum brakes have never been as good.

I had drums on my '60 CDV, and had to be constantly aware of the limitations on stopping performance, especially as I like to drive at normal speeds.   Had them fade a couple of times, but I was trying to keep up with an equally heavy Disc-braked car.   My car did have Dual Circuit Master Cylinder, and a modern Vacuum Booster, which helped a lot.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Jim Stamper

   Yes to the dual master cylinder.  For me, when the brake goes to the floor the car seems to speed up. It doesn't of course but it takes a flash for the expected slow down to register as a non- happening.

   I am a big fan of radias-ing the brake shoes so they conform to the actual radius of the brake shoe so the entire lining surface meets the surface of the brake shoe. Unfitted they will eventually wear in but they have meanwhile been wearing unevenly on the drums and giving lesser service. If each brake is a bit different uneven results will occur to some degree. Radius the shoes to freshly re-surfaced drums properly adjusted and the car will stop with confidence straight and quickly. Anything less means less performance.

   A really good idea is not to drive old cars beyond their limitations. Those limitations were entirely adequate in the day and still are with route planning.

   Jim Stamper CLC#13470