1989 water pump torx bolt stripped

[M. Patla 13876]

i am up against it trying to remove the pump on my 89 fleetwood with front wheel drive.so far i have succesfully removed all the hex head bolts without snapping any off.there are about 15 of those. now when i tried to remove the two t45 torx bolts , the first one i tried to remove,has stripped out . now what ?  any suggestions how to remove a stripped torx ? i hope this is not one of those deals where a hex head has to be welded to the torx bolt and then wrenched off. anyway will the pump clear the frame from the top or will the crossmember have to be dropped ?  it is the original pump from 89 and is being very,very stubborn. thank you matt   wish me luck 

[fishnjim]

Good luck.
Is the head stripped(internal) or the threads?   not clear.   What Size?   
Without a part diagram, I'm assuming it's an allen style bolt w/ recessed head and you can't get the vice grips on it?   Can you get a drill in there?  ie, drill the head off so it releases then deal with the remaining bolt after it off.   
Anything that's been mated that long doesn't give up easily...marriage made in the factory.
These front wheel cars are not made to be worked on, much like the northstar.   

[TJ Hopland]

For those that don't know the water pump on these sits in front of this sideways engine, about where power steering usually was on the RWD stuff.   For some reason they decided that the way to connect that to the typical ports on the engine was to make the case of the pump that huge and have it reach the other side.   That is why there are so many bolts.

Guessing this is a case of dissimilar metals and these larger bolts are near the more typical part of the pump so there is limited access to be able to do pretty much anything.    Can you see the back of the bolt?   Is it a hole that goes through what ever case its in?   I'm thinking it is and that is how extra corrosion got in there,  just like the head bolts,  seems like a good idea to put those on the outside of the block right?

[M. Patla 13876]

thanks for the response ,this bolt has a mushroom shaped head with a #45 female torx,similar to allen head.  i can not attach a vise grip to the head as the head is mushroom shape. if it were hex shape head it would be much easier. there is only 2and a half inches space between the head of that bolt and theframe. not enough space for a drill and drill bit.this bolt threads into the engine block. and ,yes,disimilar metals.suggestions recommended,  thanks matt

[Daryl Chesterman]

Is there room for a die grinder?  If so, carefully grind off the heads and deal with the stubs that are left after the water pump is removed.  Hopefully the remaining bolt stubs will allow enough room for removing the water pump.  Good luck!!!

Daryl Chesterman

[signart]

From overhead, take a long center punch, drift punch, or even a long chisel and catch the side of the mushroom head of the bolt with a few blows of a hammer driving it counter clockwise in a downward motion. After it turns, keep driving it around until you can get a suitable set of pliers around it if possible. If you have a compressor and air hammer, you can make quick work out of it if you can get to it.
You may be able have to go at it from under the car?

[TJ Hopland]

Was looking for a picture because at a glance I can't see anything useful under the hood and grime on my 90 and found this.    Are you sure the stuck bolt isn't one of the ones mentioned here?    I was remembering something about some bolts that went through something and didn't want to turn the one time I did one of these many years ago and I'm thinking those were they.    Maybe if they are you don't have to get em out?

Be ready for pop ups but they just seem to be normal ads, nothing crazy at least for me.
https://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-tip-avoid-cadillac-water-pump-installation-woes/

If you don't wish to click the bolts in question are at about 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock of the main body of the pump.  It says those 2 bolts don't go through the pump they go through the timing cover and hold the 'water inlet' to the back of the timing cover.   For those that have not seen one of these the timing cover is a piece of sheet metal like a 500 or Olds but extends way out on the one side to make this area for the actual pumping part of the water pump on one side and the inlet housing on the back.  Yes life would be easier if we all drove a pickup truck with an I6 in it. 

[M. Patla 13876]

thanks again for the responses. i looked at the link concerning the unnecessary removal of those 2 bolts . i have not removed those 2and will not attempt to as the states the outlet/timing cover gasket will shift resulting a coolant leak. now back to the mushroom head female #45 torx bolts removal . i do have a die grinder and chisel and have the wheel off and can attack from the wheelwell ,only somewhat. i can also heat it with a torch ,but i am leary of that. if i remove the heads ,then i would to somehow remove the remainder. this pump is 16 inches long with the same amount of various size hex and torx heads.only these last 2 to go thank you matt

[signart]

Don't remove the head of the bolt. Use a hammer and the chisel or punch to bite into the side of the head to rotate the bolt counter clockwise similar to illustration. Keep getting another bite as it goes around. You may be able to get vice grips on it after a few turns.

[fishnjim]

This is one of those if you could talk to a Cadillac service tech from the period, they probably had encountered and have a solution.

[M. Patla 13876]

thanks again  i will try to chisel the heads off that sounds like a good start   matt

[wrench]

Hail Mary tool?

This kind of stuff, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. I usually give it a try anyway...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Irwin%20Bolt-Grip%20Set

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Sorry Jim, but that tool won't work with a Torx or Allen head bolt.

The only thing that could work is, if everything else has been tried, and if the head is large enough, carefully weld a short normal bolt to it and then use a normal socket

Bruce.

[79 Eldorado]

I don't know the exact application but there's a solution I've used in similar situations when I'm in trouble which has a high rate of success.

Is there a chance you can get heat on the bolt with a MAP gas torch? Conventional wisdom would say to heat what the bolt is going into but I've found if you heat only the bolt, when it's not practical to heat what it's threaded into, that works as well. If you get the bolt very hot to the point it turns orange it will normally break the corrosion product and thread out easily. It should be loose enough to feel almost as if it would turn out by hand but you won't be able to touch it obviously. If the Torx tool grabs even slightly still you can likely back it out while it's still hot. Heat should be the first choice because you can still attempt anything else if heat doesn't work.

If it's a similar situation to the Olds water pump bolts which go through the front cover the best solution I've found for repairing them permanently is to, first, grind off the flared metal in the back (the metal the bolt threads into in the case of the Olds has a thin flare which extends the thread), second, thread a bolt through the plate and use the threads, from the bolt sticking out, to position a nut. Third: Thread the nut on the bolt and weld the nut to the plate. Once the nut is welded on the back of the plate back the bolt out and you're done.

Scott

[wrench]

Sorry Jim, but that tool won't work with a Torx or Allen head bolt.

The only thing that could work is, if everything else has been tried, and if the head is large enough, carefully weld a short normal bolt to it and then use a normal socket

Bruce.

Yeah, but those extractors are tapered inside and if the size of the head regardless of shape is just right and you tap it on, it may just grab. That’s why they say ‘rounded off’...you could even work the head to give it the right size/shape to be grabbed. Sort of like the chisel suggestion above.

I have used just about every type of extractor in many different situations and as we all know there is no ‘one size fits all’ solution once something strips, and it is usually a matter of luck and perseverance to get something going in a tight spot.

I agree that your suggestion of tacking a hex head to it would be a good solution but from the description it is a pretty tight squeeze in there.

I have one of these, it comes in handy to drill a pilot hole in a tight spot for a type of easy out that I use...

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pnpages/12-18501.php?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1LmRtbmX7AIVuQiICR0lTQmQEAQYESABEgKuovD_BwE

With one of these:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/wm-drillbit-1.php

And then extract using one of these...

https://shop.snapon.com/product/Multispline-Extractors/1-8%22-Multispline-Extractor/REX104A

Don’t go by the picture in the snap on ad as it seems they use the same pic for all of the extractors regardless of size.

You figure out what the size of the bolt is and then what the size of the drill bit you need for the size of the extractor for that size bolt.

I realize that these are some specialized tools, but as we have discussed extraction is more art than science once it goes sideways...

[79 Eldorado]

Irwin makes a very good external grabbing extractor. Obviously a button head makes things more difficult but the Irwin tool slips over the outside and when you turn it in the CCW direction it bites and gets tighter. It may catch a button head but I'm not sure.

It looks like they now have several versions but you can kind of see the reverse flutes in this link:
https://www.irwin.com/tools/screw-bolt-extractors/5-pc-bolt-grip-expansion-set

Scott

[M. Patla 13876]

got one out using heat and the the #45 torx  the stripped one is still stuck and i heated it orange 3 times. next. i looked at the links for the extractors and think the irwin bolt grip has the best shot,especially when i heat it orange  i will look for one and try, it may be a while but i am not done  a good day,i got one out thanks for all the helpfull insight  mattillac

[79 Eldorado]

Matt,
I bought my Irwin 4pc kit from the local AutoZone. Hope you get the second one out.

Scott

[M. Patla 13876]

today i bought an oem tools co.  spiral bolt extractor and tried again to move the button head bolt that is remaining without any success. the tool just does not grasp the round shape button head if it were a square or hex head it would possibly work. my next move will be to try to getsomeone to come to the house and weld a hex nut to the bolt head and try to wrench it off  ttill trying  mattillac

[79 Eldorado]

Matt,
Did you try it with the extractor after heating too?

The only other thing I can think of is trying a cut-off wheel on a die grinder to basically square-off the "sides" of the button head (basically add sides by cutting down into the button head). If you do that the extractor may catch it. You would need to be careful of going too far with the cut-off, to not damage what the bolt is going into, but once you get it close you might be able to hit it from the side with chisel or punch to break the piece off. Just remember to wear some eye protection with partially cut metal and chisels and punches.

The fiber discs on an air powered die grinder or even on a dremel tool work quite well.

Scott