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Why is my rear driver side hanging low

Started by Finndorado, October 31, 2020, 08:16:21 AM

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Cadman-iac

Quote from: Finndorado on November 04, 2020, 01:20:26 PM
Respect 👍😎

I second that!

I don't want to hijack this thread, but this is where the subject was mentioned, so I have a question for you Bruce.
   How did you retain the tensile strength in the bar after welding it? Did you let it cool down naturally,  or dip it into oil to cool it?
Or did you do it another way?
  I'm thinking about trying to do this for the rear of my car, and I don't want it to break under the stress of flexing.

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Finndorado

Quote from: Cadman-iac on November 04, 2020, 10:03:59 AM
Mika,

I would really double check your measurements with the car on a perfectly level and smooth surface.
The problem with just one corner of the car being low, is that unless the car is twisted, the opposite corner should measure as being high, or the same side in the front should also measure lower.
How well does the top line up with the windshield frame when you put it up? If it requires you to move it some in order to latch it down, that would be an indication that the car may be sprung out of shape, twisted, or bent someplace.
How does it look from the front and the rear? Does it appear to be low on one side on either end? If the car is not twisted, the right side in the front should look high, or the left side should also look low from the front.
If opposite corners are off, then I would suspect a weak spring on the left rear. If it's low on the same side,  both front and rear, then I would suspect the torsion bar on the left as weak or in need of adjustment, and also possibly a weak spring on the rear.
Just my observations, I hope they may help you identify the problem.

Rick

Thanks Rick

I can see your point, it`s true. The issue is now worse than before, after being in garage for three weeks now.
I took it out just for a while because space was needed inside, but I didn`t look the front then.
Maybe I would have noticed the opposite corner being higher, have to check it properly when I go there.
I am pretty sure it`s not damaged -> twisted, nothing (else) indicates that, nor does the top lining.
I think a shock or it`s line is leaking, and the spring is weak (the most simple explanation..)
But because my experience is 3 months, I rather ask here than do stupid mistakes or useless work.
Coil springs I get quicly from Sweden (nice surprice), but for shocks I wanted Koni or Bilstein, but you cannot get them.
Have to think between KYB and Monroe then.

Mika
1973 Eldorado convertible

TJ Hopland

I will be curious to see and hear what he finds.    I am really wondering if its going to turn out to be an air/debris issue.   That is such a huge difference you could see in the photos that I can't really think of anything else it could be especially because it apparently came on fairly quickly.    There was so much difference if it was anything other than air pressure I don't think the car would ever sit right and he would have found something seriously and obviously wrong underneath. 

You could also look for clues of a past issue like do the rear springs look the same?   Front torsion bars look the same?   Signs of recent adjustment on the torsion bar keys?  Are those bolts visually looking to be similarly adjusted?     

There was that post a couple years ago about the guy that has his torsion bars powder coated and the curing process apparently really screwed up the metallurgy of the springs so he was having tons of issues getting and keeping them adjusted.   I assume no signs of anything like that here?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Cadman-iac

Yes please keep us updated as to what you find out.  I'm also curious about that.
TJ is right about a shock causing a problem like that,  but only if it has a blockage in the line going to the left shock,  or in the actual shock itself.
To test that theory,  you can try to air up just one shock at a time and see what happens. You will have to change the fitting that you put the air into the system with to one that has just a single line attachment on it, or find a cap to plug one or the other lines respectively on your existing fitting.
With both shocks tied together and everything being equal, they should both lift identically. But as TJ suggested, if there's a blockage, the opposite shock will receive the air. It won't take twice as much of course, it's just that the blocked shock won't receive any air. So if you are checking the pressure in the system, you won't see any difference in the pressure reading, regardless if one was blocked. It just won't take as much air to reach the pressure you want.
Hopefully we have given you some things to look for and it will be easier to locate the problem.

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: Cadman-iac on November 04, 2020, 01:49:25 PM
I don't want to hijack this thread, but this is where the subject was mentioned, so I have a question for you Bruce.
   How did you retain the tensile strength in the bar after welding it? Did you let it cool down naturally,  or dip it into oil to cool it?    Or did you do it another way?
  I'm thinking about trying to do this for the rear of my car, and I don't want it to break under the stress of flexing.  Rick 
G'day Rick,

No modifying to the original Holden Torsion Bar as it fitted perfectly, which is surprising in itself, but I did have to modify the mounts.

But I have modified Torsion bars before, when fitting a Front Rambler bar to my '37 Chev, onto a '68 Chev 12 Bolt diff.   That one I heavily re-shaped it, and then had it re-heat treated at my local Spring Works.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Cadman-iac

Thanks for that Bruce.  I thought you had modified the bar itself. I guess I'll have to see if I can find a bar that fits my car then too. Or figure out how to heat treat one if it needs to be modified.
Hope all is well down under. Take care and stay safe,

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Cadman-iac

Mika,

I don't remember if anyone asked you this,  but how does the car sit with no air in the shocks? Is it still lopsided,  or level?
This would be a good way to check it out and would narrow down the possibilities some. Just a thought.
Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Finndorado

#27
Guys, Thank you so much for your support !!!

I believe Rick hit the jackpot with that advice to measure all corners.
When I took the pictures, I took the car out just to make space inside for other jobs,
I didn`t scope this issue at that moment, but noticed that difference and took the pictures.
Today I went to garage, took the car cover away (inside garage) and thought what a hell, it`s not
even half that bad as last time, you can barely notice it.
Measuring corners, the opposite side right front corner was even more higher towards
left front, than the left rear was lower than the right rear !!!
The difference was: rear/rear 1,5 cm and front/front 4 cm.
Before measuring I stared at the front standing and sitting in front of the car, but with your own eyes you could`t see the difference, unbelievable ! Maybe the long and huge hood effects the optical result.
So I believe the low left rear is not lifting the right front, but the high right front lowers the left rear :)

Instead of replacing the springs and shocks, I have to turn one bolt, the torsion bar`s 😎 😂😂😂.
Decided to lower the higher right corner.
In the picture the right front wheel must have been on higher level, twisting opposite corner down more than usually.
I think this is the case. (Tried to kick my own ass several times, but only hurt my knee..)
I didn`t adjust the torsion bar yet, thought to read some instructions first (with load or not, clock- or counterwise,
how much at time etc.), and the manual was at home.

Thanks again !
I will tell you the final results if you`re interested.

Br
Mika


EDIT:

Or not.
(after reading more about low rears, and springs)
Nice to have a brainchild, and then come down 😬
1973 Eldorado convertible

Finndorado

#28
Quote from: Cadman-iac on November 05, 2020, 02:21:13 PM
Mika,

I don't remember if anyone asked you this,  but how does the car sit with no air in the shocks? Is it still lopsided,  or level?
This would be a good way to check it out and would narrow down the possibilities some. Just a thought.
Rick

Rick, didn`t test that, but maybe you already read my post few minutes ago.

But will do it on monday.
1973 Eldorado convertible

The Tassie Devil(le)

Mika,

One thing to remember is that these cars with the ALC, the rear coils were softer than those cars that the buyers opted out of getting the ALC.

Whatever you do, do not attempt to adjust the torsion bars with the weight on.   Might be okay for lowering, but definitely not for raising.

If these adjusters haven't been moved since the car was built, then I would suggest spraying the threads/nut with a penetrant, as these threads could be extremely tight after years of being out in the atmosphere. (Road Grime, Salt, etc.)

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Finndorado

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 05, 2020, 08:12:47 PM
Mika,

One thing to remember is that these cars with the ALC, the rear coils were softer than those cars that the buyers opted out of getting the ALC.

Whatever you do, do not attempt to adjust the torsion bars with the weight on.   Might be okay for lowering, but definitely not for raising.

If these adjusters haven't been moved since the car was built, then I would suggest spraying the threads/nut with a penetrant, as these threads could be extremely tight after years of being out in the atmosphere. (Road Grime, Salt, etc.)

Bruce. >:D

Thanks Bruce !

That I had in my mind, because I definitely don`t want a raised rear.
It`s not so easy to find springs, forexample Rock auto hasn`t got them, and when you do, there is no knowledge if
they are soft or stiff.
This car came to Finland 2011 and has been under proper restoration since then, and got it`s first registration last summer.
The shocks seem to be new?, rear white (air) and front black, but I don`t know the brand, maybe Monroe and Delco.
But the springs are not new, so maybe I turn to replace them after torsion bar adjustment results.
The left lower side torsion bar seems to be greased ?? (at least the pole that I could see) and the right higher side is dry.
Could that tell about something, or just a coincidence ???
If other one is replaced, then why is it done ?
I mean what are the reasons for replacing torsion bars, leading to that possibility that they are not in matching adjustment, leading to
that my issue is in torsion bar adjustment or in rear spring (or then both..).

Mika
1973 Eldorado convertible

The Tassie Devil(le)

Mika,

You say that the car has been rebuilt, and one of the adjusters appears to have been
greased.

Maybe one side has had the suspension rebuilt, requiring the slackening off of the bar and removal to get the lower control arm off, and the other side was not touched.

Without knowing what was done, then one has to assume that everything needs checking.

Theoretically, the Torsion Bar Adjusting screws should be roughly in the same position.

As for Colour of the Rear Shockers, I have purchased a couple of pairs over the years from Rock Auto, and one set was White, and the other Black.   At the moment I have a Black one on one side, and a White one on the other side, simply because the first White one developed a leak in the bag, and I haven't replaced the other one.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

TJ Hopland

I would still disconnect the air lines to make sure the air isn't having an uneven influence.    I would also consider a L to R swap on the rears just to help things out before going after the torsion bars.

Since it doesn't sound like there is damage my guess is it sat for several years with one flat tire. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Finndorado

Bruce

For me, it seems that the restoration main goal has been "let`s do
everything your eye can see needs to be done".
Every bushing seems like new, rust proof coating is everywhere, paint
is 95% great, new top, new upholstery.
The 73 years old gentlemen, the importer, I bought this from, I think he was tired to
this project, did drive it only few miles, and told me he has another project also.
I think he didn`t do the restoration by him self.
And according to my first test drive, I noticed the transmission shifted
upwards very late and rough, so he did not (have time to ?) pay attention to the final operation.
He also told me that some near american car expert..?
(I believe there truly is only few in Finland, not behind every corner)
told him that there is nothing to do with the engine..
After buying I replaced the vacuum modulator, and shifting is smooth now.
And that`s not all, but does`t belong to this case.
So that´s the history information to have clues from.
The gentleman is very friendly and helpfull, but I guess he doesn`t really
know everything about the car, so asking him is much of lottery.

TJ

Thanks for your advice TJ !
I will let all air out of rear, and do the measure/look after that !
I think if I do something with springs, I replace them..
I`m aware of the car former ownerr before the car left to Finland
I did send him a postcard with restorated picture, intending him to
share the car history.
No reply so far (and not waiting for anymore..).
Anyway I found my car from YouTube when it still was in US.
Wreck from inside and top, poor paint, but otherwise intact.
Mileage seems correct according to the video.
How do I know it`s the same car ?
Well, from the hood ornament that`s not original, and the dancing
Hawaiian girl on the dashboard that is still there, it`s unique !
Here`s a link where a Finnish born "car hunter" inspects it before
shipping it to Finland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZkwJrzSE7g&feature=share

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSBgoC32p9A&feature=share


BR
Mika

1973 Eldorado convertible

The Tassie Devil(le)

I hope that you didn't buy it from that video alone, as that is one of the worst videos I have seen.    Too fast around the car, too unsteady, and simply not enough content.

Stills is the way to go, then dozens of them, and poke the camera under the car, taking pictures using the flash.

Then go and personally inspect, as the air fares are really cheap.

Bruce. >:D 
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Finndorado

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 06, 2020, 06:18:40 PM
I hope that you didn't buy it from that video alone, as that is one of the worst videos I have seen.    Too fast around the car, too unsteady, and simply not enough content.

Stills is the way to go, then dozens of them, and poke the camera under the car, taking pictures using the flash.

Then go and personally inspect, as the air fares are really cheap.

Bruce. >:D

Bruce



Bruce

I didn’t, but the gentleman I bought it from did.
But I don’t believe just because of that video.
I believe the video is just one of the “car hunters” collection
of choices.
When I bought it, it was as in the pictures, painted and restored.
The hunter is a Finnish guy searching bodies, the importer was another
Finnish guy, and the buyer the third.
I am number four with an almost proper vehicle 😁

Mika
1973 Eldorado convertible

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Mika,
forgive this late post, but IF all the frame rails and the spring pockets are undamaged I might suspect a previous owner just might have been a bit large.  Before you laugh, this actually happened to my grandfather's 49 Buick.
He got a new car in 1960 (he bought a new car every 10 or so years), and the 49 went to a relative that was extremely overweight.  They promptly destroyed the springs in the seat, and after 2 years of driving the driver's side rear hung about 4 inches lower than the passenger side.
If your air lift system had been inoperative, all the weight would have been borne by your springs which were never made to carry an overload.
With the car on level ground measure the heights of the two rear springs and see if there is a difference.
We'll take it from there
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Finndorado

Greg

At the garage there is a ”pit in the floor” (I don’t know what you call it) to
get under the car.
The pit place will be available soon, then I can do measurements and comparisons
under.
I’ll be back with those.

Mika
1973 Eldorado convertible

The Tassie Devil(le)

Pit is the correct term, and you are lucky to have one that you can use.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Finndorado

Bruce

Ok.
Yes, I was very lucky to find this garage only 15 minutes away from my home,
even I nowadays live in the middle of nothing :)

Mika
1973 Eldorado convertible