1967 429 Freshly Rebuilt. Trouble starting. Please Help!

[TCheo]

Hello all.

I’m new here but reading through some of the posts I know I’m in the right place. I have a ‘67 Deville Convertible that I just did an engine rebuild on. It was my first time doing engine work and I took my time, but it’s possible that I made a mistake or two.

The engine had a broken compression ring and a fractured piston (same cylinder) and had been sitting and so had some pitting on some of the main bearings. I got new rings, pistons, bearings, gaskets, and an original 67 shop manual for reference. I broke down the engine and sent the block to a shop to have it bored (oversize pistons) honed, dipped and had the cam bearings installed. I took it home and assembled everything else myself in my garage.

It has good compression, a rebuilt carburetor, new battery cables, and I’ve combed through the entire engine wiring harness. I bench tested the starter and replaced the battery. It cranks fine. It has spark, and the timing seems to be correct. It will not start, even with ether.

I’m at a loss here, and I’m going to need some advice on what to double check. Like I said, I’ve never rebuilt an engine before so it’s possible that I made a mistake somewhere, although I got lots of advice along the way.

For what it’s worth, the guy who sold me the car said the engine may have been from a 66 but from what I’ve read the only difference is the height of the intake and the location of the bracket for the fuel pump.

Where do I start double checking my work?

[signart]

You have spark at all the plugs? Make sure you get a steady stream of fuel by peering down the carb while working the accelerator linkage. Then double check firing order, make sure you know which plug wire goes where. Make sure distributor is in correctly and not half a turn out. Next check the timing. If you need help with initial timing for start up, get help here.
Before you do anything, study up on breaking in a cam and procedure for start up on a new engine, including pre-oiling procedure.

[chrisntam]

When cranking, is it backfiring through the carb or firing in the exhaust?  If so, that is a timing issue.

As previously said, proper cam break in is critical, suggest you have someone with you to watch for leaks or other issues as you run the engine to 2000 to 3000 rpms for, how long, 20 minutes?

[Clewisiii]

I had my rebuild done by a shop.  I looked it all over and have adjusted and corrected a few things.  I have not started it yet but one thing I know is that the distributor on mine is clocked 180 degrees.  Easy to miss if your not looking for it.

[35-709]

" ... one thing I know is that the distributor on mine is clocked 180 degrees."

Seems to be a quite common mistake --- even made the same mistake myself on a '66 some 35 years ago, if you can believe THAT
Make certain that when number one piston is coming up on the COMPRESSION stroke (not the exhaust stroke) that when the piston gets to top dead center the timing pointer is pointing at TDC on the balancer.

[TCheo]

The firing order should be 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3. If so, plug wires are oriented correctly. I bumped the engine back to what I believe is TDC. The contact on the rotor is pointing to the cylinder one wire on the cap. Cylinder 1 is at the top of its stroke, should be TDC (cylinder holds compression there, checked with a leak down tester). Timing mark on the cover lines up with the mark on the harmonic balancer.

I will need help with cam break in and advice on general engine break in procedures, but first she needs to run!

Fuel sprays in the carburetor when I pump the accelerator linkage. I’m getting no backfiring. It’s almost like there is no ignition. She won’t start with ether either. I believe I have fuel from the carb, I believe my timing is right, the cylinders have good compression, and my inline spark tester lights on all eight. I’m stumped.

Signart, you mentioned initial timing for start up, can you clarify?

[TCheo]

After lots of cranking tonight, it sounds like I’m starting to have a noise coming from the front cover. I’m going to call it a day for now and investigate in the morning. The noise makes me nervous. I might pull the cover to see what’s going on.

[Bobby B]

Tyler,
Hi. Just some advice that might help you out.......Repeated cranking and trying to start an engine will usually wash the cylinder walls, and on a fresh rebuild that's not a good idea. Also using a freshly rebuilt carb, or a carb that was never run or tested before is also not the greatest idea when trying to break-in a new "Hydraulic" cam. You run the risk of wiping out the cam immediately if the cam break-in procedures are not followed.  My rule of thumb when starting an engine with a new valve train is to use a carb that was in fine tune before removing or borrow one from a buddy just for breaking in the cam, because you know it's basically going to fire, run, and idle if all systems are go, which eliminates one major unknown. It's also a plus to have someone else helping you when starting up for the first time. Someone to work the throttle thru the RPM range needed for break-in (which is NOT idle ) and someone to also watch for leaks and monitor your gauges as far as temp and oil pressure. I always use a Boxer fan mounted in front of the radiator to simulate fresh air blowing thru the radiator to keep things from overheating due to the "tightness" usually associated with all the new rings, bearings, internal parts, etc. Things usually get pretty hot on a brand new engine quickly until parts start to wear in a bit and then temps usually settle down to normal levels. I switched over to "roller" cams when applicable to avoid all the variables associated with Hydraulic cams. It's just one less thing to worry about when running in a brand new build. You really have to have everything in order and double/triple checked before you pull the trigger and wipe out your cam from the get-go. Even though you have other issues, are you using a break-in oil, like Joe Gibbs or equiv.?  Did you coat the cylinder walls with a lubricant like MMO and all your bearings with a good assembly lube? Did you pre-pressurize your oiling system to make sure you have adequate pressure at start up? There's a lot involved and a lot at stake unless you don't mind going back and starting over due to costly mistakes. If you're unsure, try and find someone who's been thru this before to help you out. Following the cam manufacturers instructions are a must. Please keep a Fire extinguisher handy and within reach..... Good Luck!
                                                                                          Bobby

[signart]

The firing order should be 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3. If so, plug wires are oriented correctly. I bumped the engine back to what I believe is TDC. The contact on the rotor is pointing to the cylinder one wire on the cap. Cylinder 1 is at the top of its stroke, should be TDC (cylinder holds compression there, checked with a leak down tester). Timing mark on the cover lines up with the mark on the harmonic balancer.

I will need help with cam break in and advice on general engine break in procedures, but first she needs to run!

Fuel sprays in the carburetor when I pump the accelerator linkage. I’m getting no backfiring. It’s almost like there is no ignition. She won’t start with ether either. I believe I have fuel from the carb, I believe my timing is right, the cylinders have good compression, and my inline spark tester lights on all eight. I’m stumped.

Signart, you mentioned initial timing for start up, can you clarify?

If you are sure rotor is pointing to no. 1 on the compression stroke, your initial timing should be sufficient.
At this point, I would at least pull one plug and with wire connected, verify a good spark visually from the plug.
Follow the good advice already given about cam break-in after start up. Another reason for a known good carb on start up is, this is not a good time to make new carb adjustments during break-in which requires 2-3,000 rpm for about 20 min.

[35-709]

" ... this is not a good time to make new carb adjustments during break-in which requires 2-3,000 rpm for about 20 min."

The engine should be taken to 2-3,000 RPM immediately after startup, as soon as oil pressure is confirmed --- which would mean the oil light goes out --- which should also happen immediately if the oil pump has been primed before engine startup was even attempted.  If the engine overheats or has an immediate problem, shut the engine down and wait for it to cool or do needed repairs, then restart and take the RPMs immediately back to 2-3,000 for the rest of the 20 minutes.
Do not let the engine idle upon initial startup to fine tune the timing or dwell or adjust the carb, or just to listen to it.  If the timing is way off but the engine still runs it can be roughly tweaked while the engine is on its 20 minute break-in run.  This will be a busy (and noisy) time --- 2, 3, or more pairs of attentive eyes and ears (and a fire extinguisher) are a necessity. 

[walt chomosh #23510]

Tyler,
  As other have commented, distributor is not clocked properly. Pull #1 spark plug, turn motor over slowly while holding your finger in #1 plug hole,as you then feel compression turn slowly with breaker bar until timing mark lines up with crankshaft dampner,remove distributor cap and view rotor. The rotor should be pointing at #1 spark plug terminal. What you've ran into happens all the time and even with the pros.....walt...tulsa,ok

[35-709]

Further, not knowing you or just what you did upon engine reassembly, the hope is that you used copious amounts of cam & lifter assembly lube while putting the engine back together --- a little drizzle of plain motor oil won't get the job done.  Unfortunately, you have already wiped off much of cam lube in your efforts to get the engine started. 

"For what it’s worth, the guy who sold me the car said the engine may have been from a 66 but from what I’ve read the only difference is the height of the intake and the location of the bracket for the fuel pump."
The carburetor and valve train assemblies are also very different on a '67 as compared to a '66. 

Best of luck with it.

[signart]

Don't be discouraged, these folks here are trying to help you double check things that are commonly overlooked. Continue to inquire and respond as needed. Keep us posted on your results.

[savemy67]

Hello Tyler,

1966 and earlier 429s used a shaft to mount the valve rockers.  1967 and later engines used valve rockers mounted on pedestals.  Which mounting configuration does your engine have?

At first blush, I would suspect the distributor being 180 degrees out of phase.  However, your leak-down test indicates otherwise.  Did you visually confirm that the rotor rotates when the engine is cranked?  Did you establish that you have oil pressure?  Did you replace the timing gears and chain with an all-steel set?

1968 and later Cadillacs that used the 472/500 engine had the number one cylinder on the passenger side.  1967 and earlier engines had the number one cylinder on the driver's side.  Are you referencing the driver's side cylinder for number one?

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter

[TCheo]

Hello all,

I kindly thank you for all the responses and advice. I have never been this deep into an engine and and any and all information, whether I know it or not, is worth a recap. That’s what it takes to learn and get it right.

Unfortunately I had a plumbing issue today at home and that took priority. I will be getting back to the car tomorrow after work. (I manage an auto parts store)

The distributor definitely rotates. I have oil pressure and I primed the oil pump with a drill and a tool I made out of a flathead impact driver bit and a socket extension. I tested the oil pump for pressure with a mechanical gauge before I installed the engine. I got close to 40 lbs of pressure.

I believe the engine is a 66. As savemy67 mentioned, the rockers are mounted on a shaft. I am attaching an old picture for verification. In the picture note the dog chain making up for the broken engine mount and the cracked exhaust manifold. Cylinder one is on the drivers side, closest to the radiator.

I used two bottles of Melling assembly lube during assembly, as well as a pistol oiler full of Valvoline VR1 high zinc oil to keep things coated and lubed.

I’ll attach some pictures of the car too. Why not? I’m proud of what I’ve accomplished so far.

More updates coming and THANK YOU ALL!!!

[Bobby B]

Tyler,                                                                                                                                                            Hi. Sounds like you're on the right track. Maybe it'll just be something simple that was overlooked. Stay with it, and you'll figure it out. Lots of Good People on here to Help.....
                                                               Bobby

[Joe G 12138]

      Agreed:  probably '66 engine; Shaft Rockers ( "66 and back) and slotted oil pump drive ('66 and '67 429 ). As others have said; check for the basics of fuel and spark availability first.  Then work on making sure the right amounts are at the right places at the right time.
      A quick and easy way to determine if the suspected spark is 180 degrees off is to physically unplug and move the wires at the distributor cap. If unsuccessful, you can put everything back the way it was in 5 minutes. If successful, you'll know right away without a lot of fancy testing and manually rotating or cranking the engine. If  180 degrees out of whack, do what you have to do to correct it if you are particular, or leave it as is and get out driving and enjoy your car quicker. If both setups don't work and you might be somewhere in no man's land , that may take a little more wffort to sort out. Hang in there!
      Joe Gibeault

[Joe G 12138]

        I forgot to address the front noise issue: it may be a blessing this didn't immediately start and hit high rpms for an extended time period. Some have experienced an issue with the aftermarket timing gear (cam gear). I'm not sure if the metal is thinner where the bolts go through, or if it has a slight offset and is installed reversed, but in any case the bolts stick out too far on the backside and cause interference with the block casting. This can cause chips or filings and metal in the oil, even if it "runs in" and the noise goes away. You may need shorter bolts (proper grade of course) or make up the difference with lockwashers.
       I know this is a Pain in the ....to even have to consider backtracking to check at this stage of the game. But as long as this thing is not firing up, I would suggest rotating the engine by hand to see if this  possibly a reason for this noise. Then, I guess you could do the TDC verifications others have suggested at the same time.
       I know you remarked that you did the engine assembly yourself, which reminded me that most professional rebuilders hand rotate assemblies by hand at different stages to check 'feel' and sometimes find oopsies. I hope you did?    Joe Gibeault

[TCheo]

Joe,

I rotated the engine at numerous stages of assembly to make sure everything was happy. It always felt good. This noise did not begin until the engine was installed and had cranked a handful of times. Now, with timing cover off and plugs out, turning the engine by hand, I cannot replicate this noise that I was hearing. I do not hear it it turning any of the pumps either. I see no shavings in the timing cover. Everything looks hunky dory in there.

[Joe G 12138]

        Wow! You're right on top of it! I'm glad there's no damage. There is a few thousandths of fore / aft play in the crankshaft (hence the thrust bearing) which the cam tends to follow especially with a tight new chain. As long as hand turning doesn't make any sounds, that's looking great. As long as everything is visible, it sure would be helpfull to try to recreate the conditions that caused the noise. I guess it's possible that engaging the starter could push the rotating assembly back enough to cause it to reappear if the bolts were an issue. Better pull the coil wire just so it doesn't start though. Murphy's law says it will not start when you want it to, but surely start when you don't.
        The other cases I've heard about on the bolts interference on 429's were discovered AFTER the engines were successfully fired up after a rebuild.

           Joe Gibeault