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My 1934 LaSalle running real hot

Started by Mike Baillargeon #15848, November 12, 2020, 01:17:07 PM

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Mike Baillargeon #15848

Just after a few times around the block the car is hot!.....And that heat effects the restart.....I have to wait an hour plus to restart...

I figure I'd pull the pump.....It looks like the upper thermostat was stuck closed and it really stopped water from getting into the radiator....see pictures....

I've never have seen a pump like this, I think it has 2 thermostats....the big stat on top of the head I went without...the small one I had to pry out...it was stuck closed.....

Check out this hot water neck on top of the head....2 openings....I think the pump couldn't get the flow to the radiator because 1 of the T-stats was stuck closed....

I think I'll have a hard time finding these stats....do I really need them?....can I leave them open?

While I have the pump out I'm going to have it rebuilt....Arthur Gould sounds like a good choice for rebuild....

While I'm here also,....I'll flush the radiator from top to bottom with a garden hose....I'm also going to put that hose into the water gauge opening in the head to see if water flow is plugged....

The coolant that came out of the radiator & motor was pretty clean so I'm guessing not any real blockage anywhere??

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

Cadillac Jack 82


Check for cracks in the block too.  Cast blocks don't respond well to overheating.  As for pumps I believe that the 34 Lasalle used a 34 Olds engine?
Tim

CLC Member #30850

1959 Cadillac CDV "Shelley"
1964 Cadillac SDV "Rosalie"
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado "Sienna"

Past Cars

1937 LaSalle Cpe
1940 Chevrolet Cpe
1941 Ford 11Y
1954 Buick 48D
1955 Cadillac CDV
1955 Packard Clipper
1957 Cadillac Series 62
1962 VW Bug
1962 Dodge 880
1966 Mercury Montclair
1967 Buick Wildcat Convertible
1968 Chevy Chevelle SS
1968 Plymouth Barracuda
1977 Lincoln MKV

47bigcadillac

#2
I drive a 1935 , slightly different pump but basically the same overall setup and drive train as in 1934 . I don't have a thermostat, not needed this is a classic car not driven for work in freezing temp, and it quickly heats up anyway, and we also have multi grade oils, now unlike what they had back then..

The pump is located very high up on this engine, watch out the coolant level if its too low then nothing gets pumped at all.

I also made a fan shroud for better cooling at low speed, and check out the ignition timing too, if its too retarded the engine will generate more heat

use a infrared temp gun to check for temp at various spots, hoses, block,  to see if the rad does it job, if its an airflow issues or coolant flow etc..
R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

yachtflame

I had a similar problem in my 1930 LaSalle. I flowed the advice from a long time Caddie guy. He had me drain the fluid, rinse it with clear water to make sure all the antifreeze was gone then fill with EvapoRust which I ordered through Home Depot. Cost about $85 for a 5 gal bucket. I ran that for a month making sure I got the car up to temperature every day. After a month, drained it down keeping the EvapoRust. I rinsed it with clear water then put in new antifreeze. It dropped the car temperature by 20 degrees. The engine and radiator were as clean as you new. The EvapoRust doesn’t effect metals, seals or gaskets and can be reused in your other cars until it’s totally black. But can then be used to soak parts in to dissolve rust. It’s not an acid. No idea what it is but it only effects rust and built up sludge. I’ve use it on my LaSalle, then put it in my ‘49 Jag and then I’m my ‘46 Chevy resto-rod pickup with a 350 Chevy. It’s pretty black now but I still soak parts in it. This stuff really is amazing.
I have no affiliation with the product, I’m just amazed by it!
Wayne
Wayne Elsworth
CLC #17075

Mike Baillargeon #15848

I put the rebuilt water pump back in the car yesterday and I let the Permatex sealant set-up over night....

Filled her with water today....no leaks...my new back plate is ok...good news!

Took the car around the block....about a mile and a half....my new water temp gauge reads 200 after the first go round and on the second go round it climbed some more to 220....I looked in the rear view mirror and I could see the radiator was dumping coolant thru the overflow tube....

I got back to the shop and there was nothing but steam coming out of that tube.....temp gauge 230+....yuck

When I pulled the pump the water jackets looked clean in the head and the block...I have the car timed to the spec per the manual....looks like the radiator needs to come out....I'm guessing the cooling tubes are clogged after 50 years of the car sitting.....

With the car running, that top radiator hose was hot the lower hose was barely warm....It's like the pump can't pull water out of the radiator.....

I took some pictures of the water pump....your right 47Big....look how high the pump is on the head/block....it doesn't take long losing coolant before the pump is pumping nothing....

Quote from: 47bigcadillac on November 17, 2020, 08:11:17 AM

The pump is located very high up on this engine, watch out the coolant level if its too low then nothing gets pumped at all.


Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

The Tassie Devil(le)

Mike,

The Pump draw coolant in from the bottom of the radiator, so the next thing I would be doing is to have the Radiator completely cleaned by removing the top and bottom tanks, and rodding the passages out.

Now, seeing as you have modified the pump, is it working so well that the draw from the bottom of the Radiator crushing the bottom hose, thus limiting the water flow?

With the vast difference in top and bottom temperatures you describe, I an thinking that the pump is not creating a flow.

I take it that the Cooling System in your car is not a pressurised one, and therefor the water will boil at 212 F.

The other first thing I would be doing is to obtain an Infra Red Thermometer, and observe just what the temperatures are getting up to.   I would never rely on a Factory installed Temperature Gauge, for reading temperatures, as these are only guides and never been designed to act as a certified instrument.   Which is one reason why later cars went to Idiot Lights.

Lastly, when you filled the radiator up, did you fill it to the top?   As when the non-pressurised systems get to settle down, a lot of excess coolant is "tossed out".   When cold, the level in the Radiator will always be an inch or more below the top.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Bruce even before I had the pump rebuilt I noticed when I revved the engine the bottom hose would completely collapse....So I put one of those big springs inside the hose so it would hold it's shape and pull water....

I guess that should have told me the pump was probably ok but the radiator is clogged and couldn't get enough water out to the pump....As it turned out it was good to fix those pin holes in the pump....so all was not wasted...

As far as filling the radiator....I think the shop manual says to fill with the motor running so there will be no air pockets around the pump....I did fill it to the top but, I expected some expansion of water to blow off with heat......turns out too much heat and I lost too much water so I shut it down before real damage happened I hope.....

Next the radiator has to come out....that means the fan, pump, hood, nose brace rods all have to be removed....I guess I'm lucky with the LaSalle you don't have to remove the grille & the grille surround cover like the 1934 Cadillac.....

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

35-709

"I guess I'm lucky with the LaSalle you don't have to remove the grille & the grille surround cover like the 1934 Cadillac...."

;D  Yes, you are!  Same on my '35.   ;D
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Today I started & finished pulling that radiator....lots of work to get to the pulling part....Pump, fan, hood, cowl rods etc....

To get the hood off the car the manual shows how to build a quick support tool so 2 guys can lift the unwieldy hood....see pictures....

I stapled rags onto the spots the painted hood surfaces touch and then got the router out and cut a slot for where the center hinge will sit...

I hijacked my brother when he came into the shop to help lift....took less than a minute to lift and remove the hood and walk it over to the table out of the way.....no scratches to the hood or the car!!

I think I'll bring the radiator to a local shop that has been in business for over 100 years!...4 generations!

Re-coring or clean out?....we'll see what the pros say....

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

35-709

1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote.... even before I had the pump rebuilt I noticed when I revved the engine the bottom hose would completely collapse....So I put one of those big springs inside the hose so it would hold it's shape and pull water....
Lucky you actually saw that happen, and with regards the pin-holes in the Pump plate, finding that is another plus.

As for the Hood protector, don't you just love the Shop Manuals.   Everything is thought of.

Now, is anyone holding a book on how much the Radiator is blocked?

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Mike Baillargeon #15848

#11
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on December 09, 2020, 06:46:41 PM

Now, is anyone holding a book on how much the Radiator is blocked?

Bruce. >:D

Bruce I have a feeling that "blocked" means cost...haha....

I'll guess $1,000 USD for the re-core.....is that $1,200 AU?....that's really too much to spend.....and with other cars I'd purchase a universal aluminum radiator for $350 and bolt on the side flanges to install....but this one has weird notch for the crank pulley and an elongated fill spout. and it fits underneath the radiator cover....so I need to stay with these tanks and pay the money....Let's hope this fixes the problem.....

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

The Tassie Devil(le)

Mike,

A good radiator shop worth their salt would be able to unblock a blocked radiator once the top and bottom tanks have been removed.

It would only be necessary to re-core, or replace if the actual core is physically degraded, and the external corrosion has destroyed the vanes.

The one in my '60 CDV was that bad in the fins that they were falling away, but it didn't ever leak, and kept the engine cool.

If you enlarge this picture you will see just how bad mine was.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on December 09, 2020, 08:34:57 PM
Mike,

A good radiator shop worth their salt would be able to unblock a blocked radiator once the top and bottom tanks have been removed.

Bruce. >:D

Looks like we found our cooling problem....Radiator shop sent me these pictures after they removed the tanks.....wow!....can you say clogged!

He told me they have it soaking in an effort to break down the crap....

I'm glad I didn't drive the car too long with this.....not alot of water was moving thru this....

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Mike,

Great looking pictures, but seeing as it is that bad inside the radiator, now you are going to have to have a look inside the engine block, as there is every possibility that there could be a lot of stuff laying down in the bottom of the coolant cavities.

I like your initial writing   The coolant that came out of the radiator & motor was pretty clean so I'm guessing not any real blockage anywhere??

Let this be a lesson to all with cooling problems.   Clean coolant means nothing, so capture what comes out and check the volume with what the factory says it should be.

Hopefully there won't be any holes in the radiator core after the boiling out of the crud.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

James Landi

You're absolute CORRECT Bruce.  I'm one of many shade tree mechanics who ASSUMED that, having completed an engine rebuild and having made certain that the engine is running perfectly, simply went happily on my way until, on a hot summer day with the a/c on, the car over heats and, in my case, a head gasket on the new engine blows... back to square one!  There is a "service life" associated with radiators, and like the proverbial frog in a pot of increasing warm to hot water, it's so easy to overlook a crusty radiator and an engine block full of gunk until serious damage is done. to reiterate--- don't judge the quality of the cooling capacity of your system by the color and condition of the coolant.  The crud is tenacious and  seriously needs to be addressed.  James

Mike Baillargeon #15848

New picture today from the radiator shop.....crud has been boiled out....looks clean....he said we're putting it back together now and we'll see how it tests.....??

I took your advice about, if the crud is in the radiator then it's in the motor....I didn't want to take the side cover off the motor because it doesn't leak and anytime you start touching other things then Pandora's box gets open.....

See what I found under the that side plate....it looks like the gasket was a complete sheet and most of that gasket broke down and got into the cooling system clogging the radiator.....The full sheet gasket looks like it was used to fight pin holes in the side cover....

About the pin holes in the side plate cover....I'm guessing that years ago they fought those pin holes with this stainless steel plate....does anybody know if this steel plate is stock?....it's underneath the side cover....

The crud is there and I'll have to somehow power wash it out of there....It's like a mud...

I don't want to take the head off....I think Pandora's box will swallow me with all the broken bolts....I'm thinking after the power washing I'll use one of those coolant filters on the upper hose to keep the remaining crud out of the radiator....I'm also afraid of busting out the heads freeze plugs....85 year old cast iron head....oh boy.....

Any thoughts....let me know....

Thanks,    Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

Mike Baillargeon #15848

#17
More pictures today during this discovery phase.....

I put the drop light underneath the side cover to show the pin holes....

I'm going to use this new gasket against the block and under the steel plate and then the pin holed side cover goes on top of all that to be bolted to the block....

Mike
Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

The Tassie Devil(le)

Mike,

That Radclean picture is just beautiful, lovely and gorgeous.

Talk about a can of worms, but if I was you, I would be popping the Welsh Plugs out, and going in with a long pointed scriber, screw driver, and whatever it takes to get rid of anything you can reach.   It WILL take time, but it will be worth it, and when you put new plugs back in, use Brass ones, as they will last forever.

Looking at what you have found, I would be thinking that the car in its' past life, has sat for a long time, without a full coolant system, and the internal water levels were so low that the thin metal pieces could start to rust at that waterline.   Plus, the previous owner/s, didn't use any anti-corrosion products.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

chrisntam

I don't have anything really to add other than thanks for posting the pictures and talking about the overheating issue so we can all learn.

8)
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas