News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

When an inner wheel bearing freezes at 75mph....

Started by Cape Cod Fleetwood, November 15, 2020, 01:56:24 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Cape Cod Fleetwood

Never heard anything from that wheel, never a problem steering, never a vibration....

Heading to NH with The Ark today for some shopping, then to see an old friend on the way back and take some
pics at my mom's house in Sommerville. Outbound on route 6 on the Cape I heard a quick, sharp, loud 'squeak'. Chaulked it up to one of the new belts needing a tightening, no big deal, carry on. Once on route 3, same sound again, damn belt. I don't have the radio on, preferring the symphony of that 10K Reid's Automotive engine at all times. Around exit 6 on route 3, and +50 miles from home, that squeak again this time grabbed the wheel and tried to lunge The Ark hard to starboard, with a lot of traffic and we're all screaming, its route 3 after all. The ford Escort to my right saw something was amiss and The Ark is too phucking big to tangle with, he braked rapidly giving me the right lane, blinker on and limped The Ark into the break done lane to a safe stop. Popped the hood, all the belts are there, power steering fluid is full and hot but there is this God awful burning smell. WTF? The trip to NH is now aborted, I need to get The Ark home myself. Towing is not an option as the tow truck drivers will leave you on the side of the road now due to the hoax Kung Flu. Gently got off at the next exit and turned around, called Michael and briefed him. He said drive it slowly, "I'll see you when you get here."

Did I ever mention how busy this shop is, and its Saturday?

Back on the Cape, off at exit 6 heading for Hyannis Vintage Auto, go for the brakes at the lights, negative brakes. SWEET!
Those brand new stainless steel InLineTube custom made parking/emergency brake cables did a fine job of bringing us
to slow safe stop, and was the braking system the rest of the way. And there is something REALLY wrong with that front right wheel? Caliper? Bearing? *JUST DON'T NEED A TOW* since I'll be stranded. Keep going, gently.

Rolled up in front of the WORLD FAMOUS Hyannis Vintage Auto, shut down and found Michael. Shop is screaming busy and he drops everything. All the lifts are taken so a floor jack to The Ark, jacks up the front right wheel and grabs it with his hands, and it nearly comes off. I thought I was going faint. Hey, The Ark saved me just like I'm saving him, so damn grateful to have made it. Inner bearing was melted to the spindle, he ordered parts, cut off the old bearing, cleaned up the spindle, rotor, everything, while waiting for the parts to get there.

Gary came out to see what was going on. "Look at those wheel covers! They are just gorgeous! Did you pay to have those professionally restored?" Laughing, he's trying to make me feel better I know. I said "hey, look at those gorgeous fender skirts! Perfect paint match! Aren't they gorgeous?"

Did I mention its Saturday and these guys are hideously busy?

Within 2 hours The Ark is fixed. He checked the left front wheel, a little play. He pulled the pin, tightened the thingy, put the pin back in, packed the hub with grease. "I ordered 2 sets of bearings, car stays local until I replace this side, we'll do it next week, I'll text you what day. Go ask my father what you owe him."

Told Gary I had no cash but my AmEx, what do I owe you for today? Gary says "in 2 hours it will be 5:30, quitting time after a long hard day, and I'll be damn thirsty". OK, I'm making a packy run, what do you want, case of miller lite, its in process, be right back. And it was about 100 yards before I had normal braking back. Gary said I had brakes, it was just the rear brakes working, the front STB when that caliper knew something was wrong with the wheel. Whatever, system is working nominally now. Beer run complete, Gary, where do you want the beer? "Good job, now if you were a beer drinker, where would you put cold beer?" In the fridge? "BRILLIANT IDEA"! (I love these guys). OK Gary, what do I owe you... "Michael did all the work, pay him what he wants and what ever the parts cost me." "Michael, what do I owe you?" We'll settle up next week when you come back for the other side, go drive your car. Locally, slowly."

Love these guys... Love The Ark, the car, even badly wounded, came through for me. I want the rear bearings looked at, just replace them too, then I'll be done with bearings for the rest of my life.

Pic of the spindle after the rotor came off, the spindle cleaned up, then the new bearings back in and rotor on.
Praise God, this could have had a not so happy ending.

There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

Big Fins

Be happy that spindle wasn't destroyed. They're around with a hunt, but no growing on trees anymore.

Assuming he did inner, outer and seal. Rear axle bearing are always bathed in gear lube, unlike the fronts which have to be cleaned and repacked along with new seals at every brake job and halfway between. But, with 200k on the clock, it may be worth checking and installing new seals.
Current:
1976 Eldorado Convertible in Crystal Blue FireMist with white interior and top. (Misty Blue)
1969 Fleetwood Brougham in Chalice Gold FireMist with matching interior and top. (The Old Man) SOLD!

Past and much missed:
1977 Brougham de Elegance
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1972 Fleetwood Brougham
1971 Sedan de Ville
1970 de Ville Convertible
1969 Sedan de Ville
1959 Sedan deVille

The Tassie Devil(le)

Would be interesting to know the manufacturer of the failed bearing.

And when was the last time that the brakes were serviced, and the bearings re-packed, or replaced.

Bruce. >:D

'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

James Landi

Had the same thing happen to me a million years ago (1983), on the Balti-Washington Turnpike on my 1970 "New Yorker" we called the Green Latrine... instead of a squeal or grabbing, the car began to "float" in the direction that I "aimed."  In my case, the spindle was nearly cut through by the seized inner bearing.  Vintage car ownership can be hours of pleasure punctuated by moments of sheer panic.  It's so good to know that you have established a respectful, warm relationship with that repair shop.  So many vintage car hobbyist are not so fortunate.   Happy day Laurie,   James 

hornetball

#4
Ditto on Janice's original Persian Lime Eldo (back in 1985).  Happened driving from Ohio to Maryland.  On the Eldo, this happens on the rear and it got so hot it blew the tire!

One of the first things I did on Janice's replacement Persian Lime Eldo was check the rear wheel bearings.  Low and behold, it was all OEM, including the dried up ancient grease -- but the bearings were still good!  All properly serviced now.

On the race cars, I go through a lot of bearings.  They're just consumables in that application.  Losing brakes is a familiar feeling -- we call it "pad kickback."  FYI, if that ever happens to you again, you can recover your main braking system by pumping the brake pedal.  3 or 4 pumps is usually enough to take up the slack and get them back.

wrench

#5
Sorry to hear of your wheel bearing travails.

It appears to me that your spindle needs some attention in order to get back to high speed driving capability.

First off, If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

The two issues I see from the pics are blueing from overheating and galling on the outboard bearing land.

You may want to consult with your technical folks on that one and be prepared if they say you need to replace it.

One thing I would suggest is to ensure when it is all said and done that American made bearings (I prefer Timken myself) are used to put this all back together on both sides and inner and outer.

There are a lot of counterfeit bearings and one needs to be careful about sourcing even for name brand American bearings. Again, your technical team can help you ensure this critical component is genuine.

New seals are important as well.

The selection of wheel bearing grease is important.

I use Valvoline Crimson. Your technical team can assist you with selecting a wheel bearing grease for your application

Another consideration is torque tightening of the spindle nut. This process must be strictly adhered to in order to preload the bearings properly and final torque correctly applied.
1951 Series 62 Sedan
1969 Eldorado
1970 Eldorado (Triple Black w/power roof)
1958 Apache 3/4 ton 4x4
2005 F250
2014 FLHP
2014 SRX

Cape Cod Fleetwood

Unknown manufacturer of the deceased bearings. New ones are all NAPA.
Last full brake job (pads/rotors/rear shoes, adjusters) 20Jul19 at 96.9K, bearings were repacked, not replaced.
These guys have been repairing/restoring classics (and they all own caddies) for nearly 50 years. Highly confident the
repair and torque specs were accurate. Those guys know me, they know the car. If there was any question on the
durability of spindle, The Ark would still be there, not home with me. Its why they clipped my wings and said to stay local
and slow until the left side can be done.
James, take this to the bank, I know how I blessed I am with these guys and its the ONLY thing that makes me want to
stay here and not move to Florida. I'll never replace their friendship and support, anywhere.
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

fishnjim

Without getting into cause, I agree with "wrench" that spindle is suspect, could be toast depending how much heat it saw, but I'm here without details, going from pictures, and my experience.   Just issuing a friendly caution and alert to a safety concern.   Best practice says to replace, your/mechanic's call.   Gets tricky, if new not available.   I'm sure something would fit or repair with sleeving.   Heating detempers the steel, making it more prone to issues due to loss of strength/stiffness/hardness.   The color changes when this happens.   Parts won't last forever with normal wear, let alone with damage.

Any serious trailer owner has been through this more than once and once the spindle is comprised, the race can spin/not fit, cause heating or seal will leak due to grooving and it'll be perpetual problems and you indicate high speed driving.   It's a lot easier for trailers, because it happens more often, so parts, design, etc. facilitate change out.


Lexi

#8
Ditto Jim and Wrench's comments. The steel in the spindle looks like it may have been compromised due to excessive heat/friction damage. Hard to tell from here. As said, your mechanic's call. If it were mine I would source a replacement part to be safe. Clay/Lexi

Cape Cod Fleetwood

Again, these guys have done this before. They know me, how I drive, they know the car.
Michael spent a lot of time cleaning it up and examining it, Gary took a peek too. Same with the inside of the rotor.
If there was any doubt about the spindle, the car wouldn't be home with me now.
It wouldn't have been the first time they said 'no, the car stays here' either.
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

I'm sure no one really cares, but I WOULD REALLY suspect that spindle for future failure. IF it was overheated enough (as the pictures seem to indicate) it might have become brittle enough to fail and snap off.
Again, just my 1-1/2 cents worth.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Bobby B

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on November 15, 2020, 01:11:35 PM
I'm sure no one really cares, but I WOULD REALLY suspect that spindle for future failure. IF it was overheated enough (as the pictures seem to indicate) it might have become brittle enough to fail and snap off.
Again, just my 1-1/2 cents worth.
Greg Surfas

Agreed.... Toasted. And one might not be so lucky if there's a repeat of that situation.
                                                 Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

Hi Laurie:

I agree with the others.  If that spindle got got
hot enough, long enough that it has bluish
discoloration the temper has been significantly
lowered.  That means the steel has become brittle. 
It's an accident waiting to happen.

I think it's a least worth asking the guys about that.
You were lucky this time -- don't push it.

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

harry s

I agree with the spindle compromise. If it got that hot I would not trust it. I've had that happen to me twice. First one was a complete failure with the front wheel coming off. Thirty five mph in the curb lane. It was startling but that's about it. The second one was the screech at 70 mph. Stopped the car called AAA and brought it home. I replace that spindle too.     Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

wrench

At the risk of overkill on the spindle, it looks like they cut into the spindle when they cut off the bearing.
1951 Series 62 Sedan
1969 Eldorado
1970 Eldorado (Triple Black w/power roof)
1958 Apache 3/4 ton 4x4
2005 F250
2014 FLHP
2014 SRX

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on November 15, 2020, 09:46:55 AM
Unknown manufacturer of the deceased bearings. New ones are all NAPA.
Last full brake job (pads/rotors/rear shoes, adjusters) 20Jul19 at 96.9K, bearings were repacked, not replaced. 
Me personally, I would be physically checking the manufacturer of the replacement bearings, and seeing where they were made.   This will be stamped into the metal, and if they are branded as made in China, I would be tossing them and replacing them with ones either made in USA, or Japan.

I purchased a set of bearings for my trailer, and they were made in China, and the quality looked suspect.   These were replaced with Timken ones.

NAPA and other chains sell all types, with the Chinese ones usually being cheaper.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   A properly repacked bearing should not destroy itself after such a short time, unless it wasn't done right.   When I repack a bearing, I thoroughly wash it out, carefully inspect the rollers and bearing surface, and if not perfect, out it goes.
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Bobby B

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 15, 2020, 07:38:25 PM
Me personally, I would be physically checking the manufacturer of the replacement bearings, and seeing where they were made.   This will be stamped into the metal, and if they are branded as made in China, I would be tossing them and replacing them with ones either made in USA, or Japan.

A good friend of mine sells/imports bearings for a living. They are all outsourced from all over the map now, within the states and abroad. it's interesting to get the truth when I need bearings regarding the quality and where they're actually manufactured as opposed to "shipped" from. he always gets me the best possible bearings for my application. Just because it's So-and-So brand, doesn't mean anything anymore. Unfortunately, this about applies to anything you buy. You're only privy to this info when you're on the inside....
                            Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

savemy67

Hello Laurie,

I will be a contrarian here.

Your post title indicates an inner wheel bearing failure, but your first photo shows what looks like the inner wheel bearing looking intact.  I do see what wrench is referring to, as there seems to be a grinder nick extending from the key-way.  However, photos can be unclear.

I don't see the blueing that others see.  In the first photo, behind the bearing, you can see what appears to be the red edge of the grease seal.  In the second photo you can see what appears to be residue from the "rubber" from the grease seal on the part of the spindle at which the rubber of the seal makes contact with the spindle.  Also in the second photo, you can see where the grease has carbonized in the radiused portion of the spindle, about 3/4 of an inch inboard of the threads.  This could be a local hot spot below the temperature at which the metal would turn blue

The first photo shows a lot of grease remaining on the spindle.  Virtually all wheel bearing grease has a flash point in the 400 to 500 degree (F) range.  The flash point is the temperature above which the grease will vaporize, creating a flammable hazard.  For the spindle to turn blue, the steel would have had to have reached a temperature of 550 to 600 degrees (F).  If the spindle was this hot, you probably would have seen smoke billowing from your wheel-well instead of just a horrible burning smell, as the grease would most likely have caught fire.

Since the spindles are not made of steel, but I believe nodular/ductile iron, they are able to withstand a higher temperature before a color change.  This is due to the much higher carbon content of nodular/ductile iron.  Carbon has a far higher melting point than iron or steel.  The carbon content of most carbon steel is less than one percent.  The carbon content of nodular/ductile iron is about 3 percent.  This is a significant difference relative to the characteristics of the metal.

In short, I don't think your spindle has suffered damage from heat, based on the photos and your post.  However, if the spindle was nicked by a grinder or saw when the outer wheel bearing's inner race was removed, that could be a problem.  I can't be sure from the photos.

The wheel bearings do not ride directly on the spindle.  They ride on races.  The inner races fit over the spindle.  If the wheel bearing failure caused the outer wheel bearing inner race to seize to the spindle, the proper way to remove it would be to cut it part way through, then use a torch to heat and expand the race, and tap it off with a hammer and chisel.  It is unlikely that the race would have friction welded itself to the spindle, as the temperature would have to have been extremely high, and there is no evidence from the photos that that was the case.  Also, your garage would have to turn or grind the spindle to make it usable.

On these cars, wheel bearings by design have a little play.  You don't just "tighten the thingy".  There is a specific procedure in the shop manual for proper adjustment of the front wheel bearings.  If memory serves, the thread pitch on the spindle threads is 20 threads per inch.  This means that for each full turn of the spindle nut, the nut moves along the spindle 1/20th, or .050" (fifty thousandths).  Since there are two holes drilled for the Cotter pin, the nut has to be rotated as much as one-quarter turn for the pin to fit in the hole.  One-quarter turn is .0125" along the spindle.  So, proper adjustment could result in "a little play".  I believe the manual states the nut should be backed off (a little looser) if the specified adjustment does not allow the Cotter pin to go into a hole.  Improper wheel bearing adjustment is probably the number one cause of wheel bearing failure.  The second most probably cause is heavy moisture contamination (deep water, deep snow).  I don't know if your front wheel bearings have ever been adjusted, repacked, etc.  If your car has ever had a front wheel brake job, the wheel bearings should have been inspected and adjusted at that time.

If there is any doubt about the condition of the other side's wheel bearing, I think it is a good idea to replace them.  Since front wheel bearings are more susceptible to service procedures than rear wheel bearings, you may want to consider inspecting the rear wheel bearings before having them replaced.  I would also suggest you inspect the caliper and brake hose and try to determine the intermittent loss of brakes.  Good luck.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

cadillacmike68

#18
Laurie, you seem to be re-experiencing events that befell me years earlier.

That's right, back off the adjustment nut if it won't align.

Timken makes bearings for our cars. I used them when a similar thing happened to me in 2006. Pics below.

It's a Steering Knuckle folks, not a spindle.  1970 was the first year for the one piece Steering Knuckle, Steering Arm and Disc Caliper backing plate. I have them on my 1968 DVC. It is a much more durable piece than the 1961-1969 design.

The outer bearing failed on mine and actually melted the axle of the steering knuckle.

I felt it shimmying on the interstate and got off making a right turn to exit. I stopped, looked at all four wheels, no belt separation, noobvious damage, etc. and the wheels were straight

I decided to take city streets the rest of the way home. There was an intersection a couple hundred feet up and I had to turn left.

WHAM, It felt like an elephant kicked the car.  :o The wheel was halfway off the axle. The only thing holding it on was the brake caliper bracket. It had to be towed.





Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

The Tassie Devil(le)

One of the saving graces with Disc Brakes.

With drums, the damage caused would be far greater as the wheel would have departed company completely.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe