80's 90's window mechanism issues

[TJ Hopland]

Had an issue with the 90 CDV today.   Its now one of the kids cars and after a simple oil change and inspection turned into a 2 day radiator project I sent him off to work.   For some reason he decided to roll the passenger side window down on his way out and it never went back up.  Not like it was a blizzard that started out as heavy rain then went single digit temps and a 30 mph steady wind.... oh wait it was.

The mechanism on this car which I assume started sometime in the 80's and went to who knows when appears to be a plastic tape chain sort of thing.   Its got holes in it so I assume there is a sprocket on the motor that engages the tape thing.   The lifting part at least in the case of this car is what appears to be a vertical channel with a little ball joint sort of thing that must engage the tape thing and rides up and down on the track.   

The glass has a horizontal track in it with a rectangular plastic block that rides in the track and has the socket for the ball joint.    In my case what happened was the plastic block split in half and let go of the ball so the glass just dropped.   Pretty sure it broke because the grease was pretty well petrified.   The car had been in the semi heated garage the last 30 or so hours so it wasn't that darn cold.   Im sure the cold didn't help but the grease might as well been glue. 

My temp fix was to just get the ball hooked in the track and get the window up then left the switch disconnected so it didn't accidentally get lowered again.    I'm sure if I would have got to it sooner and replaced the grease it would have been fine so if you have a car from this era even if you are not in a super cold climate its likely worth your time to get in there for some re lubrication.   

On this car which is a 2 door it looks like that block only moves maybe 1/4" back and fourth.   Not sure why its got that huge track.   The track is maybe 2 feet wide.   I wonder if maybe on 4 door cars that vertical track is less vertical or maybe the window has to move at an angle to fit in the door which then requires that long slide track?

Other notes if you are working on a 90 CDV at least...
-there is a rubber strip along the bottom of the door that is held in with its own clips.  Really gets in the way and is easy to mistake those for the actual ones so get a good look before you start popping.   At least in my case the main ones were white and the usual 1/4" diameter.  The rubber ones were much smaller diameter and black.   
-torx screw under the door handle that lets that panel pop out.
-2 bigish philips screws under the door pull handle
-control panel pops the usual way by lifting the front,  rear has a fairly large flange and there is a small philips straight down under the window button that has to come out as well as 2 big ones at an angle.
-big philips under the down light and rear facing light that is a pain to pop,  its clips are on the narrow end. 

If your window happens to be stuck up it doesn't matter there is a chrome slot against the glass the top of the panel fits in so you don't need the clearance from the glass being down.

[79 Eldorado]

TJ,
I have the same "tape" power window set-up in my 1983 B/D body (Delta88). In my case the tape somehow became kinked and the window would go one way but never past the kink in the other direction. I pulled everything apart and I was able to repair it but I learned a few things:

1-There were 2 standard tapes as I recall so make certain you buy the correct one and one which is at least as long as the original (cut to length is not an issue).

2-TAKE photos and count which hole the slider thing is in. There are some parts which appear as if they could be assembled incorrectly. They may have error proofing but I seem to recall thinking at least item was not and should be. There was a guy who posted a nice youtube video on doing the job as well. I think he was working on a mid 80's Pontiac or Buick B/D car. He used some stainless slightly conical washers with bonded EPDM instead of rivets to put the motor back in. I used the same and they worked great. I'm sure I can probably figure out exactly which ones I had good luck with if you want.

3-Pay attention to the way you were able to "thread" the assembly out of the door.

4-If your split block is the same PN as mine there are a lot of aftermarket ones which appear identical but for some reason I was never able to completely figure out they don't work. I'm referring to the living hinge blacl plastic part which slides along the window track. My Delta has a frame around the entire window; as opposed to something like my '79 Eldorado where the window has no frame. Of the entire job that delicate black plastic, living hinge, plastic rivet snap part was the most frustrating and still the part which I am the most concerned about.

5-This is probably specific to my case but maybe Cadillac used a similar piece. The door pull handle has plastic covers which look like small decorative wedges at each end. Those have tiny little catches which slide under another piece before snapping it. They are nearly impossible to remove without damage so be very careful.

6-I think it may have been on the youtube video I mentioned but I the track was apparently designed to be without any grease like lubricant. I used a garage door lubricant which was advertised as being dry or very quick dry leaving behind only a dry residue to lubricate.

Good luck,
Scott

[TJ Hopland]

The 90 has full frame for the glass.   I didn't really do much exploring or take any photos.  Was in a hurry because had a convertible out in the snow I wanted to get back inside before it froze up...  too late it may be stuck out there for a while now. 

Did yours have the horizontal track attached to the bottom of the glass?   That is where the slider thing that broke on mine was.  That's where the lifting mechanism engages. 

I didn't look but is the tape a complete loop?   I did see a thing that looked like the end of a similar but fatter tape that seemed like it was maybe a tension winding mechanism but I don't remember it moving at all when I did raise the window.   Your story about the kink makes me think it can't be a loop but then I don't understand how the thing works unless its just a push pull deal and the tape is trapped in the C shaped track?

[79 Eldorado]

TJ,
No the tape is not a loop. It just cycles back and forth. I searched and found a couple of my photos. I thought I had more but I guess not. You almost certainly have the black plastic thing in the window channel (second photo). Try very hard to avoid breaking it.

The tape travels through a formed steel channel. There is a slider which attaches to the window. I guess the cream/natural colored plastic thing in my first photo is what you are referring to. The track I bought was a Dorman PN. I don't recall for certain but they may have had that cream colored plastic part as well. I'm not sure but for some reason I think I came a cross it. If not I guess they used this technology in a lot of cars if Dorman is carrying the tape.

Edit: Adding capture of exactly the "tape" which I bought but yours might be different. I think there were 2 different widths.

Scott

[gkhashem]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-Door-Window-Guides-Retainer-Clips-20160591-For-Chevy-Buick-Cadillac-Pontiac/281932508170?epid=18015415711&hash=item41a47cac0a:g:mHwAAOSwF7Faj81s

I guess you can break it.

[79 Eldorado]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-Door-Window-Guides-Retainer-Clips-20160591-For-Chevy-Buick-Cadillac-Pontiac/281932508170?epid=18015415711&hash=item41a47cac0a:g:mHwAAOSwF7Faj81s

I guess you can break it.

NO!!!!!!!!! The aftermarket ones look close to perfect but I bought some and there's something different about them. They do not work. A local shop warned me that might be the case and I thought something like this part cannot be that difficult. Do not underestimate this part. I ended up finding a NOS part finally. There are also a lot of PNs which look the same and are very slightly different.

Scott

[TJ Hopland]

Other than the tape and concept of the tape in the track the 90 is quite different than the photos.

[gkhashem]

Really, with all those repros out there none of them work?

I take your word from it, but hard to believe they are all bad.

[TJ Hopland]

I can believe it.   It one of those many things where if they are bothering to try making a part why not try and make it correctly?   And it gets worse when the same person makes it wrong and multiple people sell it under different names or copy it with the same faults.   

[gkhashem]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-15466-Auveco-Window-Guides-B-C-X-Bodies-Station-Wagon/283347737132?epid=1573885923&hash=item41f8d75a2c:g:KN4AAOSw5xhcRfha


How about these, I have had good luck with this company

[79 Eldorado]

There are a couple of OEM PNs which look very similar. One aftermarket had 3 different and nearly identical PNs in the pack as I recall. I was fortunate to have the original PN to go by as it was molded on the part. To be fair I didn't try to order ever single available aftermarket part but I did order the one which matched my PN. When I realized it didn't work the comment the local shop made I just rang through my head and my jaw was dropped.

I didn't take it completely seriously when the local shop told me they could be real trouble and I needed to find a NOS. So I had the same reaction as @gkhashem when I searched. I suspect there must be some applications they work in... I don't really know. There are a few things which can go wrong with them: width of the "backbone" retaining lip (too small pops out of track), distance between snap and the backbone (changes the gap between the clam and the edge of the window (window not deep enough in track), width of the inside of the backbone (too tight won't fit tight to the glass and won't allow the integral snap to snap) and the integral snap itself may not stay snapped (could be due to the inside width of the clam or a poorly designed snap).

I think mine broke because I went into the job not even realizing that piece existed. That cream color part basically mounts the window to the track assembly. When I loosened the fasteners I think the window tipped some and when it did that black clamp shell part popped out of the track and the integrated plastic fastener tip broke off. When I had trouble with the aftermarket part I tried to plastic weld the where the fastener broke but while the clam shell was on the window. The weld didn't bond well.

Removing rivets and swapping the motor, getting the track in and out really not an issue. That one little plastic clam shell was the most nerve racking part of the job. Mostly because I was concerned that if the original broke as easily as it did I needed to be very careful with the replacement. BTW The motor was fine but I made the assumption the issue I had was the motor. The AC Delco replacement part wasn't that expensive and so I decided as long as I had everything apart and the motor in my hand I would change it.

Scott

[79 Eldorado]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-15466-Auveco-Window-Guides-B-C-X-Bodies-Station-Wagon/283347737132?epid=1573885923&hash=item41f8d75a2c:g:KN4AAOSw5xhcRfha

How about these, I have had good luck with this company

I saw the Auveco those are not the ones I had trouble with. Clipsandfasteners.com sells that brand and in general I've had good luck with other parts they make. If I recall correctly I started to see conflicting information regarding which PN should work and I didn't see the Auveco parts before I ordered the others.

Scott