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Is this forum interested and ready for a aftermarket EFI discussion?

Started by TJ Hopland, February 03, 2021, 12:56:45 PM

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TJ Hopland

Another forum member and I have similar but different brand aftermarket EFI systems on our pretty much same cars.   Sounds like for sure he and I will chat about our experiences with the conversion and how the brands differ.   Question is should we start a thread so others can at least read it and ask questions if they want to?   

Then would that thread be here or would we have to do it on the Modified forum?   I know there is interest,  I have got contacted from this forum a few times and the question seems to come up fairly regularly in other threads but its usually just me repeating several paragraphs of things to consider and things I learned the hard way. 

The systems in question are the somewhat more recent to the market mostly self contained self tuning systems.  Mine from a company called FiTech which was apparently made up of people from other big names and the other is from Holley.   My car is a 73 Eldo and he has a 76.   I have the later heads on mine so should be pretty much the same engines and same cars.   His was a factory EFI car so that could be especially interesting to some that have an EFI car that they are having issues keeping running.

This specific thread won't be talking about the systems its for is this forum up for it?    I suspect there is interest in such a thread but will those that are interested speak up and participate?   Or will it be against the club's current mission and be more about how modified is bad and stock is good?   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

RFelts

I'd be fascinated to learn about your experiences, TJ.

Cheers!

Russ
Upper Marlboro, MD

'70 DeVille Conv
'88 Brougham

dn010

Count me in. I've done a Megasquirt EFI conversion on my DeLorean successfully, I'd love to do similar on my current Cadillac or future Cadillac using a self-tuning system to make things less painful.

It is the same in the DeLorean world, those who are purists and those who like to take a trek off the path.

For me, I like to personalize my cars my own way and enjoy those who do the same. Otherwise, some of these cars would just be in the junkyard without people doing what they can to get them on the road the way they like.
-----Dan Benedek
'57 Cadillac Sedan Deville 6239DX
'81 DMC DeLorean

TJ Hopland

I had a MS on my Eldo before the current system so I did know the MS platform pretty well at one time.   I'm sure I forgot a lot and have not at all kept up with it so I may not be an expert for someone considering one now other than general theory stuff.   MS was a really good experience because it forced you to learn and understand what was going on and I think had a lot to do with how my last system went on pretty easy and was driving same day.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

bctexas

1965 CDV
1970 SDV

Harley Earl

Count me in.  I did a FiTech conversion in 2017 on a '69 Corvette 350 engine that I had in my 1950 Bel Air (From an Edelbrock 1406).  Willing to share ALL my mistakes aka learning opportunities, they were NUMEROUS.  The car ended up running fabulously and has since been sold.  I think there is room in our tent for adding in this discussion.  Modern aftermarket FI has numerous benefits to our Cadillacs!
Hoping for a Standard Trans Cimarron

Previous
1950 Series 61 Sedan - Savoy Gray
1974 Coupe de Ville - Victorian Amber Firemist
1959 Coupe de Ville - Brenton Blue
And 20 "other" Cadillacs from the 40s to the 80s

dinhnguyen57

1941 Series 62 coupe
1959 Eldorado Seville
1990 Allante
2007 Mercedes S550
2009 STS
2018 Chrysler Pacifica

Carfreak

Perhaps it could be submitted as a tech article for the Self Starter? 
Enjoy life - it has an expiration date.

TJ Hopland

I wasn't thinking in a how to or article format.    I was thinking that since there are at least 3 of us that have done it we would just sort of start chatting back and fourth sort of at random about our experiences and then others could ask questions which would then trigger more discussions.   

I'm on some other forums where people have similar projects and there ends up being several pages of basically 2 guys doing a similar thing.   It ends up being a lot of info in kind of a random order but I think its good reading for those just curious or someone planning a similar project.   Again its not a step by step how to just info.    The curious person just learns more and the person planning to do it will have been exposed to it so while they are doing it will maybe remember "ya those other guys had this happen and said to make sure you check this".         

I ramble all the time about it when someone asks but it rarely gets a replay or goes anywhere so I feel like its just me repeating the same couple paragraphs over and over. Its also been a few years since I did mine so some of the info is a bit buried.    IF there was others involved I'm sure I would trigger me to remember a few things.

If someone else wants to write an article I would be happy to contribute but I would be depending on them to ask the questions and sort out my responses.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

dadscad

I think it would be an interesting topic. Those of us that might install a system on their car would be better educated as which system would be a better fit for their car and abilities. Experience shared by folks who have been there and done that is helpful to the guy that's just learning what's involved.
Enjoy The Ride,
David Thomas CLC #14765
1963 Coupe deVille

Harley Earl

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 05, 2021, 11:02:20 AM
I wasn't thinking in a how to or article format.    I was thinking that since there are at least 3 of us that have done it we would just sort of start chatting back and fourth sort of at random about our experiences and then others could ask questions which would then trigger more discussions.   

I'm on some other forums where people have similar projects and there ends up being several pages of basically 2 guys doing a similar thing.   It ends up being a lot of info in kind of a random order but I think its good reading for those just curious or someone planning a similar project.   Again its not a step by step how to just info.    The curious person just learns more and the person planning to do it will have been exposed to it so while they are doing it will maybe remember "ya those other guys had this happen and said to make sure you check this".         

I ramble all the time about it when someone asks but it rarely gets a replay or goes anywhere so I feel like its just me repeating the same couple paragraphs over and over. Its also been a few years since I did mine so some of the info is a bit buried.    IF there was others involved I'm sure I would trigger me to remember a few things.

If someone else wants to write an article I would be happy to contribute but I would be depending on them to ask the questions and sort out my responses.

TJ, Any help that you need, just let me know.  I will begin to mentally put some questions together that align with the challenges that I experienced.
Hoping for a Standard Trans Cimarron

Previous
1950 Series 61 Sedan - Savoy Gray
1974 Coupe de Ville - Victorian Amber Firemist
1959 Coupe de Ville - Brenton Blue
And 20 "other" Cadillacs from the 40s to the 80s

bcroe

We should hear thoughts on the subject from moderators.  It could
be quite a long running subject, more like a book than an article in
THE SELF STARTER.  My efforts here have been to keep members cars
on the road, with standard parts, procedures, and documentation.  If
you go to custom EFI, no one but the owner will be able to service it. 

One part of the picture is the extra measurement equipment needed
to service EFI.  For those who like gauges, I have been recommending
an extra pair for any EFI, fuel pressure and a Wide Band OX sensor. 
In the field I have seen several failures that these would immediately
narrow down.  The latter is really needed for any EFI tuning.  I built
this WBOX in 2000 (still in use), but they are now available for a
modest price.  And todays electronic pressure sensors are far ahead
of the old vibrating needle mechanical gauge. 

Many moons ago I managed to use my 79 fuel system with port injectors,
but converted it to sequential injection.  Maybe it would idle smoother? 
But I discovered some of the after market EFI controls had a lot of bugs,
both in hardware and software.  These could be mysterious over a hot
engine, but I found them on the test bench with some labs equipment. 
I soon moved, the bugs did not get fixed, and the 79 is back to factory. 

Something that might make a pretty good article, is to cover the options
used on all the earlier systems and the first decade of Cad EFI.  Things
like idle speed control, location and pumps for injectors, ignition timing
control, feedback loops + learning, per rev/bank/sequential injection,
EFI manifold design, MAP or MAF, and a lot of other stuff.  Clear up the
cloud, that all EFIs are equivalent.  Bruce Roe

TJ Hopland

Quote from: bcroe on February 05, 2021, 05:22:12 PMIf you go to custom EFI, no one but the owner will be able to service it

That is a very interesting question / statement.  There isn't much custom involved in many of the systems anymore.  I would also say there is a pretty good chance you would find as many shops proficient in the Holley EFI systems as you would that really still know carbs.  May even be the same shops more often than not. 

My first megasquirt system sure I will give you that me and maybe a few other people in the world could really work on because all the wiring was designed and installed by me more often than not using the same colors.  The currently available systems I would say are no different than any other car that has been modified in any way at all from stock,  the results are almost down to the person that did the work.  If they poorly chose components and poorly installed them you are going to have a mess on your hands. 


As far as I know a wideband is part of every system sold today so that isn't an issue.   Fuel pressure not so much and having that as an easy option for these systems would likely save people some headaches just like they would on OE systems that didn't get them till more recently.    Been many times I'm driving around with a gauge taped to the windshield when having it on the scan tool or display where it could be logged would be a lot more useful.               
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Leary75

As the person who converted the 76 Eldorado from a factory efi to the Holley, I would definitely be interested in this topic.  My engine has less than 500 miles after a total rebuild so I am still working through fine tuning the idle and the AFR. 

That being said, I installed the sniper prior to blowing the engine and made some big mistakes that at least contributed to the engine failure, so I have a lot of what not to do’s too

-Brian
1976 Eldorado Convertible

79 Eldorado

TJ,
Anytime you're asked to help diagnose a car and you know it's original there will always be consistency, clear documentation, service manuals etc. As soon as someone changes things, which are not direct replacements, the documentation/record is not as clear and everyone tends to install aftermarket changes a little differently. As soon as something goes wrong, after rolling your eyes, you are left wondering "Ok, what did the original install shortcut which turned out to be not such a great idea?". O2 sensor not located according to recommendations or at the wrong angle, a variety of fuel pump types and locations, was the power supply and ground sufficient? Were wires spliced into? What color wires did they use to extend that harness which wasn't long enough... oh ok they used 5 strands of green wire to save money perfect! Aftermarket EFI isn't as common as aftermarket stereos have been but I can see some parallel with the way EFI systems are going.

I have a '71 Chevelle with early 80's Cadillac D-car front spindles, ball joints and tie rod ends from Global West and rotors from special brake option Camaro with different lug studs. Everything looks pretty stock, professional looking work, no shortcuts, but nothing stock would interchange. I'm sure Global West knows the original application for the ball joints and tie rod ends but I don't. It does bother me some that if I ever broke down I could be days/weeks away from figuring out what I need to fix something. In the end I felt the changes were worth it but anyone else would never know what they were looking at. AutoZone please order one of everything you have so I can measure them..."Year, make, model, engine displacement?" Oh good grief!

With technology like aftermarket fuel delivery things evolve and older aftermarket systems become obsolete. Hopefully if you buy a well established brand everything can be serviced for a long time... Yes the original systems evolved but the original will always be original and documented.

I do like some of the new systems and I'm even planning to add one to one of my cars but I won't replace the original system on the Cadillac because it seems like a system which was ahead of it's time and other than some known issues with some of the original parts it seemed to work pretty well. Thanks largely due to this forum it's probably better understood and easier to service than the system which followed it. Bruce has identified most of the ECU potential failures and I've recreated at least a couple of the parts which commonly fail. I worked on it because I felt the original system deserved to be preserved. The more people understand them the more people will likely decide to preserve them. There are tons of original carburetor equipt cars which are not particularly historically significant and would benefit from a new EFI system. My plan is to save the aftermarket EFI for something like that as opposed to replacing something which already has EFI and could have been fixed with a little more understanding for a lot less than moving to aftermarket EFI of whatever the latest offering is.

Scott

TJ Hopland

I wasn't suggesting people convert their Cadillac EFI systems but I would imagine there are some people out there frustrated by them and having someone here that is willing to share their experience with the specifics related to converting from a 500 EFI system may be good information for them to have.    They may read about what Bruce went through and think it sounds like more hassle than continuing to work on the stock system.    Luckily we have Bruce Roe and 79Eldo/Scott that have figured out how these systems work and have put a lot of effort into keeping them running. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

bctexas

I can't think of anything one would need to do to convert a carb to one of the EFI kits that would not be easily reversible.  The only intrusive thing is drilling a hole for the O2 sensor, and that can be undone with a simple plug. Given this perhaps the argument that this ruins the car's originality isn't so compelling.  A future owner who values originality could go back, and easily if the original parts were saved.  Am I missing something?

1965 CDV
1970 SDV

dn010

I just want to add that a conversion that is done the "right way" will have everything documented. Part numbers, part locations, custom wiring diagrams etc. so one can look back and see where everything is, what wire goes where and what parts were used. This saves lots of future headaches. You'll also want to cut as few wires as possible or keep original wiring so you or a future party can always go back to stock. When you do an 02 sensor, you weld in a bung so you can plug it if you go back. I know a lot of people who begin a conversion, get frustrated and their project ends up sitting for another decade and they can't go back easily because they tore out wiring and the damage is already done.

I was someone who swore by carburetion and hated the idea of EFI, always saying what is the point of it? Why bother? Just stick a carburetor on it and you only have a few adjustments compared to EFI (or for the DeLorean, mechanical FI!) But when I started researching it and getting involved in it, I saw the many benefits of it and I accepted the challenge of a conversion which was an experience in itself. It isn't for everyone.
-----Dan Benedek
'57 Cadillac Sedan Deville 6239DX
'81 DMC DeLorean

TJ Hopland

A challenge was often one of the reasons some of us did it but the point I was hoping to get across was with todays systems it may still be a challenge but its not even the same game it was 10 years ago.    The '$1000 self contained' systems really were a game changer especially for the less common engines like we are dealing with here. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

79 Eldorado

TJ,
We should have a "sticky" / "pinned" section at the top of the technical section and the restoration section specifically for threads where someone took the time to include photos and tries to create a good future reference for others.... we have some threads like that but what we don't seem to have is a "sticky" /"pinned" section for the well done technical threads to make them easier for others to find. I tried to go into a lot of detail with some of my repairs because I thought others would find them useful but sometimes I wonder if anyone will ever find them a month later.

I try to add a link to related articles I've found on the forum to help tie related things together but it's sometimes difficult to find things in the search even when I remember reading something previously. There's a lot of good info on the original 70's EFI on the forum but it would be good if it was organized in a "sticky" topic. That may take a some effort but all of the information is essentially on this forum already. I'm not certain people would find it though without pinning it...

Obviously a moderator needs to decide what should be in the section and threads appearing there should really stick to information contributing to adding relevant knowledge to the thread. The second part is the more difficult to control unless the moderator "prunes" the thread for content which doesn't add to the original instructional/ documentation intent (even if the content is normally forum acceptable).

Scott
PS: By "sticky"/ "pinned" I mean pinned to the top of a forum section like what we see in this "General Discussion" section.