News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

Future of the car hobby: How old people kill young enthusiasm.

Started by prewarcad, February 12, 2021, 10:33:06 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

prewarcad

"A harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a very, very dangerous man who has it under voluntary control."
Jordan Peterson

Harley Earl

Thank you for sharing.  Being POSITIVE with anyone that shows ANY interest in this Cadillac affliction is a good thing.  Now if I could just find a decent Cimarron to eventually share with an up and coming Cadillac youngster...

I routinely attended Monterey Car Week, guess where the most fun was to be had; Concours d' Lemmons...It's about the cars, not whatcha ya got, my friends...
Hoping for a Standard Trans Cimarron

Previous
1950 Series 61 Sedan - Savoy Gray
1974 Coupe de Ville - Victorian Amber Firemist
1959 Coupe de Ville - Brenton Blue
And 20 "other" Cadillacs from the 40s to the 80s

Michael Petti

Yes. I always show interest in young car builders and/or restorers at car shows and they respond by showing interest my Cadillac.  I got my "affliction" when at the age of 9 my neighbor who had a white 55 CDV and a black 54 Fleetwood was nice enough to show them to me and drove me around the block. I was hooked and have been "afflicted" ever since.

Carfreak

Early 80s my boyfriend, now husband, and me attended an Olds Nats in nearby Lansing driving his 59 98 Scenicoupe.  As teenagers, new to car clubs, we were hanging with a longtime friend of my family who was showing his recently completed 47 98. 

We struck up a conversation with an older gentleman sitting nearby - he was very friendly and asked why our car was in the parking lot and not on the show field; we told him we didn't feel it was nice enough.  He was adamant that every Olds should have been on the field.     

Russ Yoder was his name, think he may have been a founding member or past President of the OCA.  What a nice guy!  He invited us to tour his collection in Ohio and unfortunately we never took him up on that offer.  Did communicate with him a few times over the next several years and obviously never forgot our encounter. 

Several years later we joined the Lake St Clair Region (now Motor City) everyone was very welcoming and friendly; most were our parents' age or older.  Thirty-ish years have amazingly passed and we consider friends made through the MCR, the Northwest Ohio Region,  CLC and of course the Olds Club as some of the best we could ever encounter. 
Enjoy life - it has an expiration date.

Lexi

Not really a good article as the author was presumptuous and rather narrow minded-while quick to cast stones. While I have little doubt that there are "old people" who are guilty of what he says, I am having trouble remembering even one. I do recall aging buddies who were dying of cancer who still attended shows, happy to share their knowledge with anyone. You would never know they were even ill. In contrast I have met young car enthusiasts who acted like the old people he complained about. Those I do remember. I have also felt rather unwelcome pulling up in my car to a new show which had morphed into one for later model high performance cars, rather than vintage Americana which is what I drive. That article largely targets the high performance crowd, (typical of Hagertys). While no one was rude to me, I certainly was not made to feel welcome at this type of show. Different mind sets at work.

The knowledge and wisdom that is associated with vintage cars, antiques and art in general, is often only accrued after years of study and living. True collectors like to share their knowledge and recognize that they are only caretakers of the art they collect. Anyone I know goes out of their way to kindle interest in the young as that is where the future of our hobby lies. Curiously, I don't recall the article discussing much (if at all) the fact that recent generations have different interests; high tech, computers, games, the internet & smart phones for example. That is a major factor in my opinion. We are all products of our environment and the automobile is not regarded in the same manner as it was years ago. I don't even think cars in general have the same status that they once had, even among adults. They are viewed more as transportation. I know of many young people who do not even have an interest in getting a driver's licence. Yes, money is an issue which the author discussed, but I am also not so sure that young people are inclined to tinker with things like we did. Not saying the DIY mindset is dead, but it has changed. 

The demise of our hobby he notes will occur unless "older people" begin encouraging the young to get involved rather than scaring them away. He is almost certain that everyone who reads his piece is guilty of killing automotive enthusiasm, if they are "older people". Really? Quite the statement to make. The problem in reality is far more complex than that. For these and other reasons, not a balanced piece of writing in my opinion. Clay/Lexi

The Tassie Devil(le)

One of the biggest problems with the older generation is that when a younger person wants to get into the "game", the cars are priced way too high, and many forget that when they themselves were young, they could buy cars for "songs" and often for nothing, but now, the seller invariably needs the high prices to fund their own retirement.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Anderson

This article came across my screen from another group.  The biggest issue I see with it is that it simply doesn't allow for the fact that the hobby, such as it is, isn't just one hobby.  My father generally liked sports cars, and he had three of them (a Mercedes 280SL that was my mother's, a very rare Iso Lele that was definitely his*, and a Triumph TR250 that was also his).  The Mercedes was the last one I held onto, selling it to buy the Eldorado in late 2019.

But the point here is that sports cars were /his/ thing.  Luxobarges were always mine...the first car that I /wanted/ wanted?  A '64-65 Lincoln Continental.  A sedan, not a convertible.  Arguably the main reason the Eldorado won out was Lincoln's unibody construction being a major disadvantage for repairs (and I'll agree now, FWIW, that it was the right choice...the FWD, if nothing else, is a big winner).

The point of this is that the article starts from a presumption of what the hobby /is/, and I think it does a very broad disservice in doing so.  There are those who like sports cars, those who like luxury cars...heck, there are those who just love a Nash Metropolitan or a Trabant[!].  Honestly, this is a bit like science fiction fandom (you've got your fans of Star Wars, Star Trek, Farscape, Stargate, BSG...movies, literature, as well as lots of folks who are bigger fans of fantasy and endless arguments about which is which, etc.).  And while there's plenty of gatekeeping to go around (much of SF fandom has a "lost generation" of folks in their 30s and 40s right now because of it, and that's causing a lot of...torque, shall we say, because of the size of the resulting generation gap), the whole thing is still vibrant as well.  It's just changing forms at times (the old literary conventions being displaced by the "gateshow conventions").

So while I think there are some accessibility issues with the "car hobby" (cost being one, technological complexity another, and the relatively weak state of the US auto industry for about two decades post-CAFE doesn't help...you've got a /long/ period where cars are arguably a mixed bag), the pandemic aside I don't quite have the sense of a "dying hobby" the way this is sometimes phrased.  Maybe in another decade or two the outlook will shift, but I also think you're going to get at least /some/ younger people into the hobby courtesy of cars getting cheaper (presuming that some muscle cars end up selling for less, etc.).  Basically, I think there /is/ an equilibrium that can keep the hobby alive (especially if the successful sales of many cars at, say, Mecum [where decent-sized collections have been sold off] is any indication)...though in some cases it is probably going to involve some folks "climbing down" from excessive reserves and the like.

Admitting that it needed some things worked on, my Eldorado cost $15k up front and I probably could have gotten to where it is for a bit less.  Let's say $25k to buy the car, fix/replace the A/C, replace the cracked header, and deal with a few other issues (I have a total of $35k into it between "all of the above", but I also put in for headers and a dual exhaust...and yes, it did nudge a bit of extra gas mileage out of her, though that was mostly eaten up in a issue with the A/C not /quite/ wanting to turn off).  That's not nothing, but that's also not $50k for a Camaro that will inevitably need /something/ worked on in the first year or two.

But again, it depends on what you want.  If you don't care about performance but want luxury, there's probably a '74-'76 Fleetwood (or a '77-79 Lincoln) to be had.  If you want performance, there's probably something down-market (in terms of modern pricing) from a Camaro to be had (a late-60s Buick Riviera comes to mind looking at value estimates).  And for both, well, the Eldorado is always a fine pick (;-)) but a Lincoln Mark III wouldn't do you wrong, either.


*In an alternate universe where I didn't miss an appointment to learn to drive stick, that was probably a frequent driver to school for me in high school because (1) it was cool and (2) it broke down so much that I could probably have played hooky once in a while and blamed the car breaking down with a straight face.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

I couldn't agree more with Mr Foley/lexi.  Article makes a number of sweeping generalizations, assumptions and characterizations that are unsubstantiated by an objective standard.

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

hornetball

What I took away was that Mr. Baruth and his acquaintances should stop being such a$$es.

cadillac ken

I always try to get young folks interested in old cars in general and since I have a few Cadillacs I give them a "tour" of my cars.  But truthfully, as interested as they may be, you really have to believe the main reason they don't take the plunge is that they just don't have the money it takes to get into the hobby these days.  Nobody's fault. Their disposable income for such things just isn't there.

J. Skelly

If you consider the cost of a 4-year college education today, most younger people don't have the money to get into the old car hobby.  Add to that, most cars built in their lifetime didn't have the annual model changes that many of us were accustomed to while growing up.  They grew up in an era with computers and video games, and now also have smart phones for entertainment.  There is a definite gap in the interests of older and younger people due to many factors, but mostly as to what each generation aspired to growing up.  If having your own car isn't high on the list, an old collectible car is even lower on the wish list.
Jim Skelly, CLC #15958
1968 Eldorado
1977 Eldorado Biarritz
1971 Eldorado (RIP)

Tom Boehm

I read the article. I enjoyed it. He made some thought provoking points. Yes, we should be welcoming at car shows. HOWEVER We buy a certain hobby car, maintain it or restore it, and drive it because there is something about that car that fascinates us. Everyone has their own personal reasons why they are enthusiastic about their car. Have some confidence in your choice and a thicker skin. Just because some old crank at a car show doesn't like your car should not change your enthusiasm for your own car or the hobby. There are plenty of others out there to enjoy camaraderie with.

Also, My opinion is that younger people are not just losing interest in the collector car hobby. I think they are losing interest in mechanical things and working with their hands in general.

TV_or_not_TV

Great thread, @prewarcad! Jack Baruth's article is so objectively true!

Lexi

In clear English, he blames virtually all car people who are over 40 for the decaying hobby and that its salvation rests entirely with them! So he offended the vast majority of us with presumptuous and often fatuous opinions, of which some readers are oblivious to. Fascinating. Clay/Lexi

Anderson

Quote from: Tom Boehm on February 13, 2021, 07:50:27 PM
I read the article. I enjoyed it. He made some thought provoking points. Yes, we should be welcoming at car shows. HOWEVER We buy a certain hobby car, maintain it or restore it, and drive it because there is something about that car that fascinates us. Everyone has their own personal reasons why they are enthusiastic about their car. Have some confidence in your choice and a thicker skin. Just because some old crank at a car show doesn't like your car should not change your enthusiasm for your own car or the hobby. There are plenty of others out there to enjoy camaraderie with.

Also, My opinion is that younger people are not just losing interest in the collector car hobby. I think they are losing interest in mechanical things and working with their hands in general.
I won't disagree with this...I have very little interest in doing "my own" work on a car, and being comfortable in life was a prerequisite to getting the Eldorado.  It arguably wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had my mother's 280SL to sell off, either...though I could make a case that something like it was more likely than not (I was drifting back to older cars already...I'd moved back from a 2002 LTC to a 1988 560 SEL as it was).

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Young people by and large aren't interested in a thousand different things- whether it be old master oil paintings, Ming Dynasty jade figurines, classical music etc etc etc.. now. That's not to say they won't be interested in them later.

Why it should be any different for antique cars is beyond me.  ???

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

CadillacGlasses

So its interesting to read articles about young people like this as a young person myself. I guess I'm not actually young - like 'gen z-ers' entering their teens and twenties, but as a millennial who has just hit 30, I have lots of thoughts about this.

Firstly, I think part of the challenge with the future the hobby is facing is the shift in culture and technology. Car enthusiasts are faced with so many great options out there, that cross a huge variety of taste, experiences and capabilities. I don't believe that the car hobby is necessarily dying, but its spreading out into more and more segments. Think about it, there are new types of vehicles being invented every single year. Twenty years ago, we didn't have brands of vehicles that exist today, and enthusiasts are finding all kinds of new and exciting things to do with their vehicles (from epic women's desert rallies to microcar tours, the list goes on).

My own experience was faced with this 'abundance of choices' as well as the well-voiced challenge of college-budget financials. Having graduated college obsessed with classics, I was confronted with the reality that I was nowhere near achieving one I truly liked until I was much older. That disheartening reality pushes many of us into different directions to 'find gold' in our own ways. Sometimes it burns us out, as it almost did to me, when I realized I'm not focusing on building my career as much as I'm struggling along with a restoration side-project while driving a beat up old Cherokee.

I think the biggest thing is to keep being welcoming. Something that I've experienced in my West of Lake CLC group is that there's always an enthusiasm to reach out and welcome in. Not all the time will I be interested in the cars, but thats also because I might be really distracted by the incredible variety of 'artworks' at the show and out in the world. I think that being the best Cadillac, classic, prewar, postwar, mid century, gas crisis, etc, etc, enthusiast any of us can be matters to everyone else. I'm pretty sure that any car-curious person will be interested in knowing why a Cadillac-nut loves their car that much to be a 'nut.'
29645 - CLC West of Lake, CLCMRC Board Member

1949 Series 62 Conv. (in progress)

The Tassie Devil(le)

Thinking back on what I previously wrote, one of the biggest problems is that when I was young, and into cars, the only cars that I could afford was when the cars for sale were at their lowest value in the depreciation line, and looking back, those cars were interesting.   I could never afford the earlier ones, as these were collector cars, and therefore unaffordable.

The young these days, when they look back at the lowest depreciation level, they are looking at cars that nobody in their right mind would want, even if they were given to them.   In the Cadillac line, we are looking at anything powered by the HT4100, and the like, and later.

Plus, cars we liked as youngsters were the ones that our parents drove.   My dad had a 1936 Ford Sedan that he purchased in the mid '40's, as the family car till 1960, then he traded up to a 1952 Chev Sedan.   Hence my leaning towards American cars.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Anderson

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 14, 2021, 11:49:45 PM
Thinking back on what I previously wrote, one of the biggest problems is that when I was young, and into cars, the only cars that I could afford was when the cars for sale were at their lowest value in the depreciation line, and looking back, those cars were interesting.   I could never afford the earlier ones, as these were collector cars, and therefore unaffordable.

The young these days, when they look back at the lowest depreciation level, they are looking at cars that nobody in their right mind would want, even if they were given to them.   In the Cadillac line, we are looking at anything powered by the HT4100, and the like, and later.

Plus, cars we liked as youngsters were the ones that our parents drove.   My dad had a 1936 Ford Sedan that he purchased in the mid '40's, as the family car till 1960, then he traded up to a 1952 Chev Sedan.   Hence my leaning towards American cars.

Bruce. >:D
You've indirectly hit on an odd point...I find it rather fascinating that folks will pass up on, say, a (relatively lower-mile) 1990s Deville (or Lincoln Town Car) that's priced at $4k but will go into a "Buy Here/Pay Here" place and buy a car that costs 2-3x that.  I "get" that some of this is trouble coming up with "cash up front" and that in some cases a long commute will be at issue...but it still surprises me since in cases like that, if you're out-of-warranty already then I'm trying to think of the timeframe the "newer" car makes sense for.

(And of course, but for a moron t-boning me in my grandfather's 2002 Lincoln Town Car, I'd probably /still/ be driving that car.)

Greg Powers

I don't think that the problem is people in the hobby killing any interested younger folks. I think that it is a shift in the culture. Young people were once brought up with a knowledge of the past and a certain respect for those who came before us. Many now really care very little about anything of the past. Once cherished family heirlooms are only viewed as potential profit. In the past the car was viewed as refection of the driver and their tastes but now they all look very much alike and there is little personal style. America's love affair with the automobile is all but dead and if the present powers have anything to do with it, that affair will be over, Modern tech and the very latest gadgets are the wish list of most younger folks. This gadget craze will all but kill the ability to prolong the life of modern cars. When the tech gadgets become obsolete the car becomes a salvage item that can't be repaired, I hope that the hobby will survive and I do everything I can to encourage anyone to enter into it, All we can do is share our cars and our stories with anyone willing to listen, Just be supportive of others and a good listener and we'll just have to see what the future holds.
G.L. Powers>1954 Series 62 Sedan/1958 Fleetwood 60 Special-sold/1963 Series 62 Convertible-sold/1970 Fleetwood Brougham-sold/1994 Fleetwood Brougham/1971 Sedan Deville-sold/2000 Deville-sold/2001 DTS-sold/1976 Eldorado Convertible-sold/1983 Coupe Deville-sold/1990 Allante-sold/1990 and 1991 Brougham deElegance-sold/1992 Brougham-sold/Always looking!