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Steering Coupler "Rag Joint"

Started by Ike, April 06, 2021, 08:03:33 AM

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Ike

Good Morning,
                     I've been beating the internet up looking for a replacement Rag Joint for my 69 Deville.   The one I ordered and seems like its the only one available only has one Rubber Disc.   Unfortunately upon closer inspection, the stock one has two.

The vendor that sold me the replacement told me you can by the discs, and they come with replacement hardware.  Thats great, except, the Stop Pins are Hot riveted in and I cannot remove them.

Im not sure why but I cannot find the double disk joint anywhere, and I dont think the single one will fit.

Does anyone have any expirience with this?    Besides trying to convert to U-joints.  Parts are extremely difficult to find.
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

fishnjim


Ike

I did.  I searched this Forum and theres a lot of posts, but none mention the duel disc, or if there is a replacement.  I been googling and watching You Tube videos  but again, none show a 2 disc set up, or mention it.  All I see are single discs that say direct replacement. 
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

bcroe

There seems to be a lot of variety in those rag joints, and the steering places
are more interested in selling racing parts, than in rebuilding your stock parts. 
Pretty annoying when a car drifts around.  Here is a pic of something I eventually
put together on my 79.  You cannot tighten a nut against rubber without it coming
loose, so 2 nuts against each other do it, and 3 are better yet for critical stuff. 

My research shows the DORMAN 3100 3 1/4" dia ruber disc kit
that fits older stuff, available a lots of stores. AND the 31002,
DORMAN 31011.  Found with much more at SUMMIT RACING
under steering-Rag-Joints

I found some at Jegs

https://www.jegs.com/p/Borgeson/Borgeson-Rubber-Coupling-Rag-Joints/755269/10002/-1?q=755269&catalogId=10002&Ns=P_Margin%7C0%7C%7CP_SKU%7C0&langId=-1&storeId=10001#

I was not happy with the way a u joint transmits road vibration,
and before a huge number of miles, it got loose too. 
good luck, you will need it    Bruce Roe

Ike

Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

Ike

Problem is. I cant find any reference to the duel disk. And All I see are singles that say "exact fit"
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

The Tassie Devil(le)

I have had to make my own once, and used a piece of 3/8" thick Conveyor Belt rubber, which has the same amount of reinforcing layers with great results.

Don't need many tools, but a good hole punch works well.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

fishnjim

Picture worth thousand words.
Could be what you have is not correct. ie, was changed to aftermarket at some point. Maybe PO made one and used two thinner discs?   Or the disc has delaminated and split in two.   I never saw a "two piece", probably why you can't find one...   Did you disassemble or just looking from above?   What matters is the total thickness.

I don't know anything about pins hot riveted either.   The pins should be free of the contour plates and nuts below.   They might be frozen from rust.   They usually come with new ones, but sometimes, the don't fit/match the OEM.   A universal joint kit from NAPA probably would work just fine.

Without a part list/part number, I can't help.   I'd buy a whole coupler and change it out.   A helluva lot simpler. 

Ike

Here is pictures.
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Brian,

That joint to me looks like two pieces of rubber with a couple of layers of reinforcement bonded together in the middle.

This is what a bad one looks like.   The Column was out of alignment, and you can see the reinforcement insertions across the thickness of the piece, which is what all others I have seen, no matter what the make.   Sorry I don't have a picture of the replaced one.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Ike

Bruce,
         You are absolutely correct, 2 pieces, Cannot find anything like it for replacement.   Trust ome this one is bad, you can't see the bottom part of the rubber disks where the gear box has been leaking and blowing back on them so long they have turned to mush.

Im going to change the gearbox as well,  just need to figure out a replacement for the coupling.   I really do not want to switch to U-joints.
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

The Tassie Devil(le)

Brian,

As I mentioned previously, it is not hard to create a replacement if you cannot find one the same.

Use 2 pieces of Conveyor Belting, and then you will have the close-to-correct thickness, and if you cannot re-use the pins, make new ones in a lathe, and then rivet them into place.   This is how the originals were made.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Ike

I can buy the rubber discs, I just wasn't sure how to get the stops out.  Looks like its going to be another project.  ::)
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

Roger Zimmermann

It could be interesting to know why a double joint was used/needed. Wrong alignment with the column? I would use the single joint as you pictured. With a power steering, the transmitted torque is not that important, a single joint will do the job.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Ike

I will look at that. My concern is the overall length without the second disc
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

Roger Zimmermann

Those cars are so imprecise build that some mm more or less have no importance. The shafts have splines, they allow some distance variation.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Ike

Well, We'll see worst case I swap to U-Joints
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

bcroe

#17
Quote from: Roger Zimmermann
It could be interesting to know why a double joint was used/needed. Wrong alignment with the column? I would use the single joint as you pictured. With a power steering, the transmitted torque is not that important, a single joint will do the job.

I thought that some models used a double disc for more precise
steering, or maybe over a longer time. No problem, stack 2 discs,
my problem was finding the right dia.  Bruce Roe

Ike

Th issue is getting the pins out to add a disc. and finding longer pins adding a disc would require the pins and bolts to be longer to compensate for the extra disk.
Brian Eichelberger

2019 CT6 Luxury
69 Deville Convertable
69 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Eldorado. Previously owned
71 Coupe Deville. Previously owned
72 Coupe Deville. Previously owned

fishnjim

All that matters is the overall coupling length, shaft sizes, spline count, and OD so there's no turn interference.   
It looks like the coupling has "slipped" down or oversized and riding on the gear shaft seal, causing the leak.   Compare the exposed spline on top vs bottom, ie, not centered.   May indicate that a shorter/thinner one is "better". 
You won't find all the OEM parts for everything all the time after about 10 years past introduction as manufacturing methods change and companies go out.   I'm not convinced it's an original for that application but I can say what I want, but regardless, there has to be some part number or other ID to trace it.   Not to speculate too much but common, it maybe a bad factory part that was later replaced/substituted.   Some parts are also obsoleted as the inventory depletes, so there may or may not be a superceded part number and what they're selling today.  Some suppliers just lack information on the correct part.
I just don't have the catalogs handy by the computer and doing other things.  You should get a parts list for your year car.   A Cadillac garage still possessing a working microfiche reader and a friendly counter agent is what to hope for.   Pre-'84, no computer files.  You still may not find that exact part but can tell if it's the correct one and proceed accordingly.   Sometimes they interchange for something else that's more available(Olds, Buick, etc).   The steering gear was more or less made by the same division until they shut down.
We get some odd parts/part numbers that people swear are "original' to the car and neither can prove one way or the other without some documentation.   
You might find someone who can repair your coupling if you want that one.