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1956 Seville, steering problems

Started by 56SevilleStryn, April 10, 2021, 05:51:50 PM

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56SevilleStryn

Hi, I have a 1956 Eldorado Seville that is absolutely awful to drive. The car drives all over the track, and requires extreme attention to avoid accidents. I have radial tires on the car (225/70 - 15) and Sabre spoke wheels. Does anyone have experience with where it makes sense to start troubleshooting the steering? The car had toe out, with a few millimeters (5/32 "), which may explain some of the problems. What setting will work with these tires I have on the car? Are there other possible reasons why it is so bad to drive?  I am sory if you have problems understanding my English, but I think you would have bigger problems if I wrote it in Norwegian. :D  I am grateful for all good solutions.

savemy67

Hello Steinar,

Welcome to the forum.

I don't think a small deviation from normal toe-in or toe-out would require extreme attention to control the steering.

The first checks I would make would be to make sure both front tires are inflated equally, and that neither front brake is dragging.  If these two items are OK, I would next check all the front suspension components, and steering linkage for bent, broken, or loose parts.  The last items I would check are the steering gear, and power steering (make sure the belt is adjusted correctly).

Based on your post, I envision you struggling with the steering in order to maintain control of the car.  Is this a recent occurrence, or has the car always been like this?  Did the car suffer an accident that involved the front of the car?

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Steinar,

Toe out is a definite no-no, no matter how small it is.

With Radials, you need no more than 1/16" of toe in, and no less.   The factory will probably say 1/8 to 3/16", but that is with Cross-ply tyres.

The problem you are getting is that with toe out, when one tyre sees more grip that the opposite one, the wheel will tend to move in that direction, and then when you try to correct it, it swings back the other way violently and so forth.

Wheel Alignment figures are different for Radial Tyres, in both Camber and castor for an ultimate driving experience, and one of the issues with the older suspensions is that they can get very sloppy, thereby exacerbating problems.   Radials are not as forgiving as Cross-plies.

Then there is the pressures as well.   Always run the Radials at least 4psi higher than Cross-plies.   Plus, a Radial Tyre will try to follow every deviation, but Cross-plies will just roll over them.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Daryl Chesterman

Hello Steiner,

In addition to Christopher's suggestions, I will ask if the front tires are worn evenly across the tread?  Maybe try rotating the tires by bringing the rear tires straight forward, and put the front tires on the diagonally opposite side in the rear.  Usually the rear tires will wear evenly across the tread if the pressure is correct.  With the front tires having been toed-out, they are probably not worn evenly, which would contribute to poor steering.  What pressure do you have in the tires—I usually run 35psi in the front and 32 psi in the rear for radial tires.  I do this because the weight on the front axle is more than the rear, unless you are carrying passengers in the rear seat.  Does the road you are driving on have ruts worn in it from studded tires?  If the road has ruts that are made by cars that have a narrower spacing than your large Cadillac, this may cause problems with steering.  You also should check the front wheel bearings to see that they are adjusted according to the procedure in the Cadillac Shop Manual.

In the following website there is a discussion on proper alignment specifications, as there was a correction to the original specifications in the Cadillac Shop Manual.  The correct specifications are in Lexi's post.

     http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=160921.0

I hope this translates into Norwegian so that you can understand it.  I have a good friend who lives just outside of Ringebu, in northern Norway.

Daryl Chesterman

Edit:  I see that Bruce posted while I was writing this and he has some good points about the alignment for bias ply (cross ply) versus radial tires.  You will want to discuss this with the person who does your alignment.



     

Roger Zimmermann

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 10, 2021, 08:29:40 PM
   Plus, a Radial Tyre will try to follow every deviation, but Cross-plies will just roll over them.

Bruce, my experience is the contrary: cross-ply tires will follow each joint, white lines and so on when radial tires are not disturbed by the road irregularities.

To Steinar: you don't write about the condition of the suspension from your Seville or the steering system. With the old king pin system, those cars are sensitive if there is too much play in the front end components.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

56SevilleStryn

There is a 2" play to either side of the steering wheel, to keep the car going straight. The only thing I have been recognizing is a small up/down motion on the axel going in to the power steering, from the steering axel, when you turn the steering wheel carefully around the mid position. (It feels to me like this is to open the power steering valves, but I am not sure about this.)  The ball joints are ok, so are the king pins. The bushings on the upper and lower control arms also look good. Grease nipples are carefully checked and refilled. The only modification we have made to the car, was changing the power steering pump, due to a bearing problem. I have also changed the idler arm, some 30 years ago, but the car has not been driven much since that, maybe 2000 miles. I cannot remember if the driving quality got worse after that. The car has been sitting for some years now, due to the steering problems. Any speed over 30 miles per hour is unsafe, I would say impossible.

fishnjim

Definitely don't drive it in that condition.   
Almost impossible to diagnose a suspension/steering issue from the internet.
Need to get in the air and inspect all those items from the steering wheel down to the tread.   You can not see wear behind a grease seal cup.   You have to do the "play" tests on ball joints.
Going back to troubleshooting, when you change something and a new problem arises, it's "most likely" that's involved, so I'd focus on the pump and gear first.   You have to check the hydraulic pressure and a few other things.
Rag joint(coupling) is another easy one to check.   Since it's sat so long, rubber goes bad.   

Roger Zimmermann

Having 3 cars with the same steering box (one of was sold some time ago), I can tell you that the steering system is not especially precise, but never that bad as you are experiencing. From design, the steering shaft has to go up and down to open the valves, as you wrote. When the engine is not running, the 2" free play at the wheel seems to be a bit too much, but there is some.
Adjust first the steering linkage with the toe-in and not toe out and test drive. Did you ever try to adjust the steering box, at the screw on top of it? It's not an easy adjustment: too much and the steering wheel will stick when driving straight away; too few and there is too much play...
You should also check if the Pitman shaft is without play. For that, somebody should turn the steering wheel (without engine running) and you should check if the Pitman arm/shaft assembly has a sideway motion. This is a critical point. '56 has a bronze bearing; for '57 & '58, it was replaced by a needle bearing, much less sensitive. The Pitman shaft can be out of round. You have 2 solutions: either let hard chrome the Pitman shaft and replace the bronze bearing or buy the NOS Pitman shaft I have in stock, as well as the bronze bearing.
Those cars had not a fantastic steering, but not so bad as what you are describing. I went on rare occasions at 100 mph on a wide street!
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

J. Gomez

Steinar,

I would have to second Roger's suggestion above, if you have the Service Manual go over the sequences to check and test the steering box as well as following Roger's suggestions.
That much play you notice it may also indicates the steering box would need to be rebuilt as internal components may be wore out with age.

Good luck..!
J. Gomez
CLC #23082