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R143a phase out announced (again)

Started by fishnjim, May 03, 2021, 01:17:34 PM

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fishnjim

We're going around the circle another time.   The save the planet Biden EPA has finally called for the HFC phaseout.   Much anticipated but not advanced since Paris accords.
These materials were MANDATED by the EPA for ozone, now they're calling for them to disappear?   Past time to have a master plan and to get their act together over there and why this should not be a admin dept with politically appointed leaders who can change every four years or less with a lot of funny business in between but still definitely needs multidiscipline professional oversight.
Companies make investments to produce these compounds and need time to get a return, not knee jerk regs.   All this will do is raise prices for refrigerant at some point in the short term.   Won't affect the outdoor temperature much.
So if you converted your classic Cadillac from R12 to R134a, get ready to convert again at some point, or buy R12 from China, because they can make it and in small cans is "exempt"???   A fair system by all accounts.   What happens when the govt and polly-ticks gets involved in things they know not of.   That's my "beef" with EVs, they're rushing and have not studied this move which is likely to increase energy usage and cause all sorts of transportation issues.   Putting a few million in for power stations, is a drop in the ol buckeroo.
Quite frankly, I don't agree with the global warming hypothesis for a lot of technical reasons, and have been studying this since the '70s when the same folks predicted a mini ice age no less...   They say "human induced" then blame CO2?   I really don't care if we move toward renewables, but not mandated stuff and don't think that's going to solve all our global problems.   

J. Skelly

Maybe now we'll just have to get used to driving with the windows down like in the old days!   :-[

There should be a refrigerant that most countries can agree is safe for the environment and effectively cools a car.  I have 4 cars that came with R12 and haven't converted any of them yet.  Only my '77 still has a working ac system.
Jim Skelly, CLC #15958
1968 Eldorado
1977 Eldorado Biarritz
1971 Eldorado (RIP)

cadillacmike68

Did you mean R134a?

Yeah the eurobozos are the ones who started this crap...
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Cape Cod Fleetwood

Don't blame me, I voted for the Orange Man. Time to stock up - if there's any left by now.
You know, even if we went back to the horse and carriage, Greta would find an issue with horse farts.
Like cow farts, weren't they going to doom the planet? I can't keep track...
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

At the risk of, well I don't know what, but at the risk of...
First of all, R-12 was phased out in the 90's because it was shown to react with the upper atmosphere and form some very nasty chemicals.  It was not the R-12 that was in automobiles, but the millions of tons of it that were used as propellants for things lie cool whip and used in the foam blowing process.Propellant R-12 was dirt cheap.  We used to buy it in 2000 pound cylinders for less than 10 cents a pound. R-12 was the engineers favorite refrigerant for over 50 years, but they had to change. Remember, for those of you over 175 years old, they used to use Mercury and arsenic in medicines until they discovered some slightly detrimental effects of those chemicals. No, China is not exporting R-12.  They are exporting Methyl Chloride, which was the predecessor of R-12 and has found its way back into Refrigeration.

R-134a was a rushed replacement for R-12, and probably would have remained as the primary automotive refrigerant if there had not been a power play by Daimler to try and get the world to use its patented (read that you pay me a fee to use it)  Ultra high pressure CO2 system.  The debate about Global Climate change is not one that I have any intention of getting into, but that is what happened.  The issue has driven the phasing out of R-134a, which incidentally is now close to 1/2 the cost of recycled R-12 which will be around in places it is legal for at least a couple more decades.

HFO-1234yf is the Dupont response to a "lower climate change potential" refrigerant.  GM has been using it in its cars for something like 10 years now, and you can buy it, if you are licensed and have got the $5K worth of equipment necessary to use it, for something  like $50.00 per pound. Just a note, a year ago the price was more than double that so it is coming down.

Can it be used as a drop in for R-12? NO.  Can it be used as a drop in for R-134a? YES, but at a cost of 15% in system capacity.
Thats my rant for today.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

scotth3886

I still have a fair amount of R12, enough for the rest of my life.  I use R12 in the others, and had my 66 Fleetwood converted back last summer, and it shall stay R12.

I can still find it in the original 14oz cans on ebay easily for around $30 - 35 a can.

fishnjim

Yes, typo in the title line, but correct in the text.
What's to say some other Prez gets in an reverses this in 4 years?   
That's where the problem lies.   Jerk'n us around, taking money from our wallets.   
Surprising blowing agents were exempted for some uses.   Whip cream uses nitrous oxide.   eg;https://www.epa.gov/snap/substitutes-rigid-polyurethane-appliance   there's more there.
The mechanism of ozone induced dechlorination was lab demonstrated but as far as I know was never confirmed to occur in the atmosphere.  But it's a passe subject now so no one covers it.   The ozone hole closed/shrank back to normal and no one really knew why.  But CMEs impingement is likely.   The amount of atmos refrigerants has increased, mostly from emissions from China.  And we buy a lot of stuff from them so we're complicit if it's true...   So who's kidding whom?   When we don't know something we should admit it and not take political sides.   Pseudo-leadership.

Cadillac Jack 82


My system still uses R12 and I love it.  I was driving a friend around this past weekend and she complained about the heat.  I rolled the windows up, flipped my A/C switch, and in 5 minutes we were ice cold.
Tim

CLC Member #30850

1959 Cadillac CDV "Shelley"
1964 Cadillac SDV "Rosalie"
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado "Sienna"

Past Cars

1937 LaSalle Cpe
1940 Chevrolet Cpe
1941 Ford 11Y
1954 Buick 48D
1955 Cadillac CDV
1955 Packard Clipper
1957 Cadillac Series 62
1962 VW Bug
1962 Dodge 880
1966 Mercury Montclair
1967 Buick Wildcat Convertible
1968 Chevy Chevelle SS
1968 Plymouth Barracuda
1977 Lincoln MKV

MaR

The Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute is among 35 other groups that called for the EPA to proceed with the changes. This is not a Biden thing.
https://www.ahrinet.org/news-events/news-and-shipping-releases?A=1605

Jon S

I just stocked up on our 134A at Home Depot for $5.19 a can. I still have some R12, so this fills in my supplies
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#10
Quote from: MaR on May 04, 2021, 11:40:51 AM
The Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute is among 35 other groups that called for the EPA to proceed with the changes. This is not a Biden thing.
https://www.ahrinet.org/news-events/news-and-shipping-releases?A=1605

Until I see a list of those redoubtable groups' backers, that means nothing to me.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

MaR

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on May 04, 2021, 06:02:09 PM
Until I see a list of those redoubtable groups' backers, that means nothing to me.
Why?

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: MaR on May 05, 2021, 03:32:28 PM
Why?

Isn't it obvious? Asking who stands to gain the most and the answer becomes clear.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

fishnjim

Actually there is an R-143a refrigerant, 1,1,1 trifluoro ethane.   Which is a HFC.
Well, I guess if someone told you you had to comply and made preparations, then when the time comes and you say you're ready, is not necessarily being at fault for this.
We should not be subjected to this by our govt and put at a disadvantage globally...Same insanity that's pushing CO2 as cause for all our ills.   Stop and think.   Herd's being stampeded for gain.

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

With today's smaller vehicles better insulated thermally and acoustically the system capacity required as well as the available space has seemingly disappeared. The new refrigerant HFO 1234yf in conjunction with the specifically designed systems which use  dry small quantities of actual refrigerant make for a much more efficient system.
I don't know why there seems to be such a hissy fit around these changes. There was very little objection to the sequential Ganges from Ammonia to sulphur Dioxide to Methyl Chloride, ending up with R-12. All of these changes required equipment changes an their included expenses. I believe that was an example of progress and believe it or not had absolutely nothing to do with any political notions.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

TJ Hopland

May be time to build an ice house and convert our glove boxes to ice boxes.  Guessing that had to have been tried before?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Something close TJ. In the early 60's my (then) father in law got involved with a manufacturer that made a device the size of a glove box that was insulated and refrigerated by the use of gasoline. Yes gasoline. One line hooked up to a fuel source and had a capillary tube for its expansion device. The other line hooked into the intake manifold. It worked great and at highway speed would maintain 35degrees.  I don't think I need to explain the few minor side effects.
Realistically once the majority of vehicles are electrically powered, AND there is a bit mor semiconductor progress they will start using Peltier effect cooling and heating systems, but that story is for another day.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on May 05, 2021, 06:05:22 PM
I don't know why there seems to be such a hissy fit around these changes. There was very little objection to the sequential Ganges from Ammonia to sulphur Dioxide to Methyl Chloride, ending up with R-12. All of these changes required equipment changes an their included expenses. I believe that was an example of progress and believe it or not had absolutely nothing to do with any political notions.

Because there's a BIG difference between changes are brought about voluntarily, ie, the free market system and those artificially imposed.   

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Eric
Do you think the "free market" is what made the manufacturers remove Mercury from "medicines" or Asbestos from baby's toys or lead from paint?
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on May 05, 2021, 08:16:13 PM
Eric
Do you think the "free market" is what made the manufacturers remove Mercury from "medicines" or Asbestos from baby's toys or lead from paint?

I don't know but safety glass was being installed in cars back in the 1920s long before government mandates. The self starter pioneered by the marque we celebrate improved safety as well.

As to Mercury - we used to play with it on the floor in the classroom. Spill a drop in a school today and in comes the hazmat team in spacesuits and the building is closed for a month. (Slight exaggeration but you get the drift). 

One thing I am certain of: "Researchers" & "scientists" agree with those writing their paychecks 100% of the time - and 100% the time someone profits big time while the consumer gets whacked. Under such circumstances you'll have to forgive me if I'm skeptical about the veracity of the majority of stuff they so desperately want us to believe. The more heavy handed the mechanism, the higher my suspicions - which over the last few decades have been running at fever pitch. 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute